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[宫崎骏访谈及其相关] [原创][翻译]宫崎骏在1988名古屋电影节上的演讲

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发表于 2005-9-14 16:09:03 |显示全部楼层

宫崎骏在1988名古屋电影节上的演讲

--动画是这样产生的

A Speech by Hayao Miyazaki
Here comes Animation
(At Nagoya Cinema Festival 1988

翻译:Icytear

所有翻译均为动画爱好者交流所用,版权归原作者及所属媒体所有

翻译部分未经允许,请勿转载.

.

.


1988522的名古屋,在《天空之城》、《小熊猫》、《小熊猫-雨天杂耍》放映过后,宫崎骏做了如下演讲。

许多年以前,就在日本TV动画业陷入低潮的那段日子,《小熊猫》诞生了。其实如果你查看一下日本TV动画业的历史,就会发现这样的“低潮期”是很多的。(观众大笑起来)

我觉得那时候我们用的玻璃片比TV动画多的多,但随即我也意识到我们仍很苍白无力。现在再看,那些片子简直需要大幅度,观看起来真有点难受。

但我还是和高畑勲一起上路了。我们去了一家电影院——那相当冷清,只有很少的小观众,但这些孩子们看的好入迷。我也带去了自己家孩子,连他们也被深深吸引住了,因为通常说来,孩子们觉得枯燥时是会到处乱跑的。这给了我极大的信心,我相信自己能够做出带给孩子们欢乐的作品;而在随后制作《海蒂》时我却发现,这是一项非常艰难的工作。在那以前,我一直倾向于为自己创作,但我成为了一名父亲——于是,这是我第一部真正为孩子们创作的作品。

我们曾反复讨论到底是否要拍三到四部曲,或者说我们是否应该拍。但最终,我们只拍了第二部《小熊猫-雨天杂耍》。我们似乎也无法再进一步,所以当我创作《龙猫》时,我并不是想要重拍《小熊猫》,只是想真真正正的为孩子们拍一部电影。

给爱人献纸花的猪

他真的好笨,但我还曾经打算拍一部写坦克里的猪的片子呢。

从前有一只猪,他造了辆和这栋楼一样大的坦克。他曾经是一名军官,但一些事情困扰了他,于是他说“我不干了!”这只猪还没结婚呢,但在军队里已经有很多“猪侄子”了,大约一共30个吧。于是,这群猪叔侄钻进了他们自造的坦克,无论起因是什么,他们终究是做出了愚蠢的承诺,径直穿越国土,永不回头,向着帝都前进了!(观众大笑)

路上经过一个小镇,它们发现了一个可爱的女孩,就把她劫为“第一名战俘”。坦克里还有用来远眺的空间,所以这只猪就把女孩锁在那里,想要用一朵纸花或者别的什么赢得她的芳心。但女孩已经有了男朋友,于是男孩骑着摩托车追来了。他根本不是坦克的对手,但最终,坦克还是被这对小情侣给搞垮了。一开始,这是这种类型的片子。

其实我对这个片子不太关注,所以男孩子最终不见了,而猪则俘获了女孩的芳心,这是个大团圆的结局。(观众大笑起来)

一开始,这个女孩被设计成在车站餐厅工作的普通女孩,但她也发生了变化,最终变成了象《不归河》中玛丽莲梦露一样的酒吧歌星(片中的她是如此的迷人),只是这个女孩更年轻更纯真一点。

恩,大家都知道,这部片子发行了原始录象。但我没这个打算,因为那时候我正筹划着《天空之城》(大笑)

所以我对某个年轻人说“导演这个吧”,他也同意了 ,但在实际操作的过程中,我们发现彼此根本没有共同语言。

这头猪是那种把俘获的女孩当“第一战利品”,说“我爱你”并送纸花的类型,但当女孩说“不,我已经有了心上人”来拒绝他的时候,他会说“没关系,我会永远等你,直到你回心转意。”但年轻人不相信有这样的人,他说“毫无疑问,他可以立刻占有这个女孩。”

我坚持认为“不是这样的,如果他真的这么作了,生活会是多么索然无味呢。如果故事里安排在他劫走女孩的那刻就占有她,那简直就是废话。”“然而,会有这么一只劫持了女孩却仍为她的心而守候的猪,这才能让观众感觉这是一部值得花钱观看的片子。但年轻的导演说“我根本无法理解这种‘恶棍’”并因此而放弃。

由于他的放弃,这项工作最终搁浅(大笑)。而直到现在也没有浮出水面。

我创作了许多电影,我也经常说,“片子里没有百分百的坏蛋。”由于各种原因,坏蛋或者变好,或者在辛勤工作的过程中渐渐融入好人的群体。比如在当今这个时候,我就可以预言,在3集电视系列剧完成之前,坏人就一定会变成好人。

其实我想说的是,我希望事情是这样的。当然,我们并不知道劫持了女孩的猪究竟会不会设法去俘获女孩的心。但成千上万的猪中肯定会有这样一头的,而其他那些可能会占有女孩。所以,要么你认为这才是真实的猪,你在片中就要让情节显得更真实;或者你相信即使是万分之一,世界上终究会有一只好猪,那你的故事就应该为这样一只猪展开,这就是分歧的所在。

我不想创作一只太真实的猪,那种猪他不按照人类的方式思考,对他人也完全没有同情心;他可能会想既然我已经有了100个女人,那第101个甚至是第110个也是迟早的事情。给这样一个坏蛋创作一部片子真是不值。于是,人们会说“你笔下的‘坏蛋’也太善良了啊”“他们太帅了”“人类不是这样的”,特别是女孩们会说,“女人也不是那样啊。”(大笑)

由于某些原因,男士们不会说“男人不是那样的”,他们可能相信真的会有这样一个人。但女士们会斩钉截铁的说“这的确不是真实的女人”。我也不知道是为什么。

我已经被告知“你对人物性格的深层把握还不够”或者“你是在无视人心深处邪恶愚蠢的劣根性,你只是在宣扬那些所谓的好东西”。事实上,在《龙猫》中,这种说法是完全成立的,我也有意那么做。就好像是在说“我希望有这样善良的人,我希望有这样可爱的邻居。”当然,我也可以作一部电影,片中隔壁住的是满脸凶相老太婆,总爱咆哮着说“不准碰我的菜园!”(观众大笑起来),于是可怜的小月和小梅大哭起来……恩,这好像更像高畑勲先生的片子吧。(观众大笑)

我当然可以这么做,当然可以,但我根本不想如此。已经有很多其他人在拍摄这样的片子了,有他们也足够了。对于我来说,即使我被告知“根本没有这样的女人”,我也不会改变,我会继续期待,期待着生命中出现这样一个人。

四岁记忆中的战争

其实,我今天要谈的是我的童年经历如何影响了我的作为。我也是仅仅在快50岁的时候才能平静的讲述这个故事,但最近,我已经不再想谈起了,因为其中牵涉到我的父母。

我的家族在战争中发展的非常兴旺。因为家族生意是军需品供应,叔父作为总裁,而父亲是工厂经理。虽然生意只是外围,我们主要负责在被遣散的枥木县乡下地区为战机制造和收集保护罩。那时候,工厂有1000多名员工。

说起战争,我们听说了很多被强争入伍,被迫杀人或者被杀的故事,要不然就是人们的日子是如何的难熬。其实,简单的说,那就是一种整个社会都采用激进行为方式的状态。所以,虽然有很多荣耀的事情,比如自戕――虽然最终这么作是毫无意义的――但也有很多丑恶的事情。发生了好多好多事情,有人未来赚钱不择手段,有人欺诈人民,也有人卖劣质品。

更确切的说,我是从父亲那听来这些关于机翼的事情的,它们没有引擎那么重要,但是却是那些没有技术的业余女工制造的,根本不符合标准。他们根本不合格,但只要你贿赂那些侦察军军官,这些次品就可以被接受。所以,那些飞行员开的飞机瑕疵太多,简直就像没有枪眼的机枪。这是个真实的故事。那些引擎换了新牌子就特别糟糕,要靠军人自己修补才能使用。它们真的很差劲,有的还漏油。比如,1000马力的引擎只能做500马力的功率。无论你怎么修补,也作不到1000马力的功率。就是在这种情况下,我们战败了。

但是当人们都热衷于从事军需行业的时候究竟发生了什么呢?首先,我父亲这边的亲戚没有一个参战的。只要说“我们还要保证军需品的供应呢”,他们甚至都不会被应征。而且,父亲在战争中赢得了一辆汽车,不是那种木炭车,而是真正的汽车。当然,母亲也说过,总是要想方设法让孩子们不饿肚子,她着实有些辛苦,但和其他人经历的苦难相比,那根本不算什么。简言之,家族的历史上最繁荣的竟然是战争时期,虽然我们在某种程度上也要遭受空袭和逃难的惊扰。战后的混乱时期,我们也终究能填饱了肚子。

19457月,那时的我刚好4岁半,我们居住宇都宮市被轰炸了,细节也不必赘述。一个四岁孩子的脑海中,自然有自己对故事的描述,然后是反反复复的回忆……回忆。

每当我从蒲团上醒来,我是说,被空袭惊醒醒,那常常是午夜时分,天空被染成了红色,不,是粉红色,仿佛是联欢会上的焰火。连屋子里也被粉红色笼罩。房子是如此的大,而我们只能蜷缩在花园一角搭好的避难棚,并被告知即使那里也是不安全的。那时我们家兄弟3人,最小的弟弟还没有出生,小弟弟是个奶娃娃,我四岁,大哥六岁。妈妈背着小弟弟,爸爸挽着我的手;我的另一个叔叔就拉着大哥哥的手,一家人躲在TOBU铁路的桥下。噢,我记得那个叔叔好像也在军需品工厂里工作。那座桥在郊外,到处是植物,所以我们觉得炸弹应该不会投到那里。事实上,天灰蒙蒙的,那些里面真的含有汽油的汽油弹向下雨一样从天而降,整个城市陷入一片火海。

夜间的大火通常很吓人,但天空明亮的犹如白昼,所以当我们在铁路上避难的时候,我也不是如何惊慌,起码,不像一个四岁的孩子那样惊慌。

之后,我们又感觉那里还是不够安全。那一天,叔叔开着公司的货车回到了家里――那是一辆很小的Datsun货车,比今天的轻型小汽车还要小。那也是一辆烦人的车,因为引擎已经很难发动了,但叔叔为了把它送回来不惜穿越了城中大火赶回家中。回来之后,他发现虽然大火曾近距离灼烧过车子,可车子一点也没有被损伤,而且由于被火灼热过,发动引擎时,车子也立刻启动了。要知道,那本来是一辆要手动曲柄才能发动的车子啊。所以那以后,全家就决定乘着这辆车逃到城外去。母亲抱着小弟弟坐在乘客座上,叔叔坐在驾驶席上――车子很小,所以这样就满满的咯。父亲,哥哥和我就呆在车斗里,上面盖上蒲团,因为我们要穿越火海嘛!反正,我们就这样上路了。

那时候,已经有很多人在火车桥下搭建了帐篷,虽然记不太清楚,但我确定有一个女人的声音说“载我一程吧”。我不知道我到底有没有看到她,或者仅仅是我认为我看到了,因为我确实听到随后父母和她交谈;总之,我们邻居那个带着孩子的女子确实向我们跑来,说“载我们一程吧”。但货车就这样开走了。她那嘶喊着“载我们一程吧”的声音渐渐消失在远方,在我脑海中形成了戏剧化的一幕。

无论如何,直到被告知一切OK,我才把脑袋上的蒲团拿了下来,然后在市外一片土地的中央下了车。夜晚即将告别,但宇都宫的天空依然一片明亮,仿佛是黄昏初临,和《天空之城》里面陷入火海的堡垒一般。我记得我一边看,一边想:“原来这就是宇都宫。”

幸运的是,随后我听说她和她的女儿都脱险了,那太好了,我会这样想,但很有可能她们就活不下来。事实就是这样,我们在从事军需行业的父母的呵护下安逸的成长,而其他人却生活在战争的水深火热中;我们开着一辆“罕见”的汽车跑掉了,甚至抛下了那些要求搭车的人,而很多人就这样的离去了。这些事实在我这样一个只有四岁的孩子的脑海中也留下了很深刻的印象。当想到人们关于“坦荡荡的生活,多为他人着想”的言谈,我就觉得这简直难以忍受。在还是小孩子的时候,我们总是愿意相信父母是大好人,是天下最好的人。所以,我把这些记忆压抑在内心,很久很久。我几乎要忘记了它们,但青春期的我却不得不再次面对这些回忆。

在那个时候,由于经济问题,即使在东京也仍然有很多人上不起高中,要失学很长一段时间。每个班里都有一些这样的孩子。当我开始对社会问题产生兴趣的时候,比如,我会拿这些孩子和我自己相比,或者当我为这些孩子担忧的时候,会发现从自己出生那天开始,我生命的本源,我赖以生存的基础原来是一个如此大的骗局。面对这样的问题是多么惊恐的一件事情,所以在高中毕业之前我一直把自己伪装成感性而温和的好男孩;在学习方面,我也很用功。

但是我再也不能忍受了。我是说,如果这样继续下去,那我的下半生很可能不得不淹没在谎言中。所以,18岁进入大学,我不得不开始思考这些问题,我该如何思考,我究竟为什么活着。

那真的很痛苦。当然,我也有公然和父母对抗,但毕竟,我不能直接去问他们,为什么不让母女俩上车,因为我自己也不清楚事情到底是怎样的。如果我在父亲或叔父的位子上,我也没有把握自己会停车。也就是说,如果世界上绝大多数的猪都会占有那个女孩,那我很可能也会。

我想如果有一个孩子说“让她上车吧”,那时父母很可能会停下车;起码,如果我也为人父,当我的孩子这样说,我会这么作。其实你有很多借口不这么做。如果停了车,也许有更多的人会拥过来,制造更多的混乱,我也很清楚这一点。但我仍然希望自己当时说了“让她上车吧”,或者我的哥哥说了。当然,如果父母一开始就停下车,一切就更好咯。

事实上,这个关于货车的故事和战争的本质根本没有什么关系。即使我做了自己认为应该作的事情,军需工业的问题就能解决吗?或者说,有人在空袭中丧生,而有人则幸免于难,这种事情和日本这个国家在战争中残杀中国,菲律宾和东亚其他国家人民的恶劣行径相比,我不得不说,日本全体国民都是罪人,所以问题根本不是那么简单。但毕竟这些年来,我意识到我应该拍这样一部动画片,故事里的孩子在这种情况下会说出“让她上车吧”,而不会因为大部分人不会这么做就放弃。

所以,献给姑娘一朵纸花然后说“请接受我的爱吧”听起来可能不是很现实,正如一个四岁的孩子要求父母“请停下车吧”一样不现实。但是,如果真的有这样的一个孩子,如果我们真的感觉到“恩,在这种情况下说这样的话很正确”,那事情就好的多。至少,我觉得我自己无法用别的方式创作一部影片。我看过的许多描述人类愚蠢和内心阴暗面的片子,它们总是让观众感到自己也该被诅咒,然后心情压抑的离去。这就是这类片子的重要性所在,我们也确实应当时常受这样的教育,但我不想把事情弄成“这才是我的愿望”。在《小熊猫》中是如此,《龙猫》中也一样。其实我的大部分片子都是这种风格,但是除了这么做,我别无选择。

耕耘者,收获者

我还有一段经历。

由于我生活在一个大家庭里,家里有一名女仆。恩,现在不应该再叫女仆了,应该叫“助手”。大约是我六岁的时候,那时候战争已经结束了。我在厨房力看到了ohitsu说到,啊,这就是我们吃的大米吧。女仆生气的说,在我们家,谁都不能这么说的。我想她在成长过程中一定亲身经历了残酷的食物短缺。她的语气至今在我脑海中留下鲜活的印象。

从我还是个孩子时起,我就对不公平非常反感。大概是因为我是家中的次子吧。脑海中总是出现哥哥抢走我鸡蛋的那一幕,我当场大哭起来,仿佛世界上再也没有什么比这更糟糕了。(观众大笑起来)

我总是感觉生活是如此不公正。我清楚的记得那时候的感觉。那时候我还只有三岁,所以童年的记忆竟然有一个如此恶劣的开端!但小时候的我对不公平确实是很反感的。

有一部俄国无产阶级童话叫做《这是谁的面包》。

故事的主角是一只红色的小公鸡,一只狗,一只猫和一头猪。小公鸡有小麦种子,于是说到“大家来种吧”,但其他三个在玩扑克还是什么别的,说到“不,我们才不要呢。”于是小公鸡就自己种下了种子。植株日渐成长,当小公鸡建议一起除草,其他三个又拒绝了;小公鸡又请求他们帮助收割,还是没有回应。于是小公鸡又自己承担了。“帮忙磨面吧”答案还是“不”,小公鸡又自己磨了面。但当他作好面包准备吃的时候,其他三个却说了 “我们一起吃吧。”“这是我的面包,你们没有份!”小公鸡这样回答。印象中这个故事深深的吸引了我。

于是这成了我另外一个主旨。不仅仅是关于公平的,还有“自己耕耘,自己收获”。这可以在生产和财产占有的问题上成立,在劳动和资本问题上也同样成立。

我想说的是,即使有人创造,当你想在动画电影中创造一个属于自己的世界,无论故事本身是多么有想像力,除非有人真正着手作,最终是不可能有收获的。我们总是感觉人类在这个世界上忙于耕耘,农民种地,收获,但更深层次的想,是太阳和光合作用给了植株生命的力量。所以,如果你问是谁在为地球创造着生命的奇迹,事实上应该是植物。我想说的是,包括煤炭资源在内,地球上所有的一切都是太阳赐予的,是太阳和植物给了地球生命,地球本身并没有什么更大的贡献。如果地球真的有,那也只能是核动力和核融合,但我想大家都知道这会产生什么后果。简言之,你之所以可以利用,是因为已经有人为你创造好咯。电力资源如此,漫画也是一样。所以,如果不全面考虑到这些事情,那我们根本不可能在动画银屏上创造那个属于自己的世界。

即使是《风之谷》《天空之城》,也有人在贡献力量,也有那些作“面包”的人。《龙猫》也是如此。总有人在为之忙碌,无论是科幻小说,侦探小说,还是什么其他的。也包括《鲁邦三世》。如果鲁邦说,作贼真的是很酷的职业,那他也算是个低*的人咯。他之所以能成为贼就是因为世界上还有诚实的人。有诚实的人,就有剥削他人诚实的人,于是鲁邦就可以向他们下手。我希望鲁邦是这样的侠盗。即使在片中你不能明显的看出是谁在耕耘,谁在收获,但人们应该明了,的确有人在耕耘,有人在收获。

有一部电影叫做《白蛇传》,我曾被他深深的吸引住,那也成为我从事动画行业的理由之一。在故事中,身为妖怪的白蛇与凡人坠入爱河。当龙王问他“如何如此”,她回答道“人类有我们所没有的宝贵灵魂。”看到这里时我很怀疑,因为片中除了男主角英俊的许仙和女主角白蛇画成正面人物的形象,其他人都画的面目可憎。他们中有喝践酒喝到醉醺醺的拉船苦力,也有穿的破破烂烂当街而卧的乞丐,最好的不过是在街上走来走去的孩子们,我真不明白白蛇为什么会觉得人类更好,仅仅是因为有灵魂吗?简言之,他们的形象和他们的言谈很不符合。

所以在我们制作动画的时候,我总是告诫员工不要把配角画的面目可憎,特别是在《鲁邦三世》中。虽然警官的脸袋长的如何并不怎么重要,但如果把镇上其他人的脸孔都画成“配角脸”,凸现出鲁邦很酷,那这部片子就真的很糟糕咯。或者说,我们一定要尽量把配角也画好,即使是最微不足道的龙套。因为我们要知道,正是因为他们,像鲁邦那样的傻子才能大行其道;我们甚至能拍一部片子,让鲁邦成功的俘获女孩的心。我也这样告诉我的员工。虽然,这个目标很难实现。

从前有一只猪,他会给心爱的女孩送上一朵纸花;即使把女孩困在屋子里,他也从不会硬来;我要牢牢记住这只猪和他的事迹,也希望我的片中能有他的身影。

其实当中可能有很多矛盾,但我也无法作出任何改变。所以我决定,无论别人说什么,我只要继续自己的路就好



英文:

[Miyazaki-san gave this talk on May 22, 1988, at the Nagoya City Imaike Hall, after the showing of Laputa, Panda Kopanda, and Panda Kopanda: Rainy Circus.]


Panda Kopanda was made, well, how many years ago was it, when Japanese TV animation was at its lowest. If you look at the history of TV animation, there are many such "lowest" times. It's still at a low even now. -audience laughs-

I thought we had used many more pieces (cels) than TV animation then, but I realized that we were still stringent. Watching it now, I feel that we should've moved it more, and it's a bit painful (to watch).

But I made it with Paku-san (Takahata-san), and (we) went to a movie theater, well, this was really an unpopular theater and there were very few children, but those children were really enjoying it. I took my kids with me, and they were really concentrating while watching it. It was commonly said that children would run around if they got bored. It gave me confidence that I could make something (which would entertain children), and this is an important work for me in terms of inducing me to do such works as Heidi later. Until then, I had been thinking that I wanted to make (anime) for myself, but I became a parent, and this was the first anime that I really wanted to make for children.

We talked about what we would do if we got to make a third or fourth episode, should we do this or that, but we only got to the second one (Panda Kopanda: Rainy Circus). We couldn't make more than that, so when I made Totoro, well, it wasn't like I wanted to recreate it, but I wanted to make a movie (for children) properly.


The pig who offers a tissue flower

It's really stupid, but I once planed a movie with a pig in a tank. -audience laughs-

There is a foolish pig who made a tank as big as this hall. He was a military officer, but something bothered him, and he says "I quit!" The pig hasn't been married yet, but he has many nephew pigs in the military: about thirty of them in total. So, the uncle and the thirty nephews get on the tank they made, and whatever the cause for the rebellion is, they make a stupid pledge that they would march straight across the country and never make a turn, -audience laughs- and start advancing toward the imperial capital.

On the way, when they are passing a town, they find a lovely girl, so they kidnap her as "the first war trophy." The tank even has a room, which can be elevated to scout from the higher point, then can be brought back into the tank. The pig locks her up in this room, and tries to win her over. With a flower made from tissue paper or something. The girl has a boyfriend, and he comes chasing after her, riding a motorcycle. He is no match for the tank, but in the end, the tank gets destroyed because of the boy and the girl. At first, it was that kind of a movie.

As I kept fiddling with the story, the boy began to disappear, and it ended up with a happy ending in which the pig's love won the girl over. -audience laughs-

At first, the girl was supposed to be an ordinary girl who was working at a station restaurant, but she began to change as well, and she became a bar singer like Marilyn Monroe in River of No Return, in which she was really lovely, only that this girl is a bit younger and purer.

Well, what do you know, this project got accepted as an original video animation. But I couldn't do it, since I was about to make Laputa at that time. -laughs-

So, I told a certain young person, "Direct this," and he said yes, but as we proceeded, we found ourselves totally disagreeing with each other.

The pig is a kind of guy who says "I love you" to the girl whom he kidnapped as "the first war trophy," offering her a tissue flower, and when the girl says "no, I already have someone I love" and rejects him, he says "that's fine, I'll wait forever till you change your heart," but the young director said he couldn't believe that such a man existed. He said "I have no doubt that he is going to have this girl (Mono ni suru)."

I insisted "No. If he did so, a life wouldn't be interesting at all. It's no use to make a story where a guy has a girl the minute he kidnaps her." "Instead, there could be a pig who does kidnap a girl, but still considers (her) heart very important. That's why people feel that it's a movie worth paying money." But the young director said, "I can't understand such a villain," and quit.

Because he quit, this project got scrapped. -laughs- Till today, it hasn't resurfaced yet.

I've made several movies, and I'm often told, "There is no true villain in your movies." Somehow, they (the villains) turn good, or become good people while they are working hard. These days, for example, I can predict that this villain will definitely become a good person before I finish three episodes of a TV series.[1]

I mean, it's the way I wish things to be. Certainly, we don't know if a pig who kidnaps a girl will try to win her over stoically or platonically. But if there are billions of pigs, there could be one pig like that. The rest of them may be the violent ones who will have the girl. So, whether you think that since this is the pigs' truth, you should make the pig have the girl to make a true pig movie, or you think that if there is such a pig even though he is just one in a billion, you want to make a movie about such a pig, that's the point where the disagreement occurs.

I don't want to have such a true villain, who doesn't think of people as humans, who has completely lost sympathy towards other people, who thinks that since he already had 100 girls, it doesn't matter if he has 101 or 110 girls. I don't feel like making a movie to depict such a villain. Then, many people say "your villains are too good" or "they are too nice." They say "humans are not like that." Especially, girls say, "women are not like that." -laughs-

For some reason, men don't say "men are not like that." They think that there may be such a man, but women say with confidence, "this is not a (real) woman." I'm not sure (why).

(I've been told that) "You aren't developing characters deep enough" or "you are neglecting evils and stupidities inside a human, and depicting only affirmative or good things (in him/her)." For example, that's totally true with this Totoro.[2] I intentionally did so. It was like "I wish there were such people, I wish there were such neighbors." Well, I can make a movie in which you moved only to find a nasty old lady living next door, and she always complains such as "don't touch my vegetable field." -audience laughs- And two poor sisters cry and cry... Well, this is getting more like a movie Paku-san makes. -audience laughs-

It is so. It is certainly so, but I don't feel like making such a thing. There are other people who make those kinds of movies, so I think those are their movies to make. For myself, even if I were told "there is no such woman," I think I have no choice but to keep going with "I wish there were such a person."[3]


The memory of the war I experienced at age four

Actually, what I want to talk about today is how my childhood experiences may have influenced what I do. I was only able to talk about this story calmly after I got close to fifty, but until recently, I didn't want to talk about it at all, since it involves my father and mother.

The home I grew up in did very well during the war. Because our family business, of which my uncle was the president and my father was the plant manager, was a part of the munitions industry. Though it was at the periphery. It was making and assembling wingtips and wind shields for war planes in the rural part of Tochigi prefecture, where we evacuated to, it had more than one thousand employees during the war.

Speaking of war, we hear a lot of stories about people getting conscripted and forced to kill people or get killed, or that people suffered a great deal, but in short, it's a state in which a society conducts its activities very vigorously. So, although there are in a sense many noble things, such as self-sacrifice-- though they would be considered wrong in the end-, many ugly things happen. Many things happen, like doing terrible things to make money, deceiving people, or selling defective products.

More precisely, I heard this from my father that the wingtips of the Kamikaze planes, well, I guess it's not as serious as in the case of engines, but, those wings made by unskilled part-time girls didn't fit the standard. They were unfit, but they were still accepted if you bribed the inspecting military officers. So, the planes those Kamikaze pilots flew (had many defects) such as no holes for machine guns. It's a true story. The engines were in the worst condition when they were brand new, and the troops tinkered with them to make them usable. They were really in bad shape, such as engines leaking oil. For example, a 1000 hp engine had only 500 hp from the beginning. No matter how you tinkered with it, it wouldn't give you 1000 hp. Well, in such a situation, we lost the war.

But what happened when people engaged in this munitions industry was that, first, none of my relatives on my father's side went to war. By saying that they were needed to keep the munitions industry operating, they weren't even conscripted. Further, my father owned an automobile during the war. Not a charcoal car, but a gasoline car. Surely, my mother said that she had a hard time making sure her sons had enough to eat, but it was nothing compared to the hardships other people had to go through. In short, in my family's history, we were most prosperous during the war, though we certainly suffered some degree because of the war such as the air raids or the evacuation. And we did manage to eat during the confusion of the postwar period.

In July 1945, when I was four and a half years old, Utsunomiya, the city I lived in got bombed. So, well, it's no use going into details. Since this is the memory of a four year old, I think I created a large part of the story while I was recalling it over and over.

When I woke up in my futon, I mean, I was awakened because of the air raid, it was midnight, but the sky was dyed in red, no, pink, like an evening glow. Even the inside of the house was pink. So, since it was a big house, we went into the shelter made in the corner of the garden, but we were told that it was dangerous even there. I have three brothers, but my youngest brother hadn't been born yet at that time, my younger brother was a baby, I was four, and my older brother was six years old. My mother carried my younger brother on her back and my father held my hand. And my other uncle, I think he was also working for the munitions plant, he held my older brother's hand, and we evacuated to under the railroad bridge of Tobu Railway. It was under the bridge, outskirts of the town, and there were lots of greens, so we thought bombs wouldn't be dropped there. Actually, it was cloudy, and the firebombs, called oil and fat incendiary bombs which contained oil in them, were raining from the sky and the town was already on fire.

A night fire is usually scary, but it was so bright, like during the day, I wasn't so scared when we were evacuating on the railroad. It wasn't that scary for a four year old child.

Then, we thought being there might still be dangerous. That day, my uncle brought the company truck to the house. It was a very small Datsun truck, smaller than today's light car. It was a troublesome truck since the engine was hard to start, but my uncle went back home through the town in the fire to get that truck. He went back and found that the fire was coming right up next to the truck, but the truck wasn't burned yet, and when he tried to start the engine, it immediately started since it was warmed well by the fire. Well, (it was a kind of truck) you have to crank (the engine) up by hand. And he came back through the fire, and we decided to evacuate to outside of the town riding on this car. My mother holding my brother sat in the passenger's seat, my uncle was in the driver's seat, and it was full since it was such a small car. And my father, my older brother, and I sat on the loading platform, covered by a futon, since we had to run through the fire, and anyway, we started going.

Then, there were several people taking shelter under the railroad bridge, and I don't remember clearly, but I surely heard a woman's voice saying, "please give us a ride." I don't know whether I saw her myself, or I thought I saw her, since I heard my parents talking about her later, but anyway, a woman holding a girl, who was one of our neighbors, came running towards us, saying, "please give us a ride." But the truck just took off. And her voice saying "please give us a ride" gradually died away in the distance... Well, that was made up in my head like a drama.

Anyway, I kept the futon over my head until I was told that it was OK and I got off (the truck) in the middle of a field outside the town. The night was nearly ended, but only the sky over Utsunomiya (was bright), like the evening was just born, like the dome-shaped fort in Laputa on fire. I remember that I was watching it, thinking "Ah, there is Utsunomiya."

Fortunately, later I heard that both she and her daughter survived, and I think that's good, but it was possible that they wouldn't have survived. And the fact that I grew up comfortably under parents who were making money in the munitions industry when others were suffering during the war, and the fact that we ran away riding a rare gasoline truck while others were dying, deserting even those who were asking us to take them with us, those facts remained as a very strong memory even for a four years old child. That was very difficult to bear, when you think about what people say about living right or being considerate toward others. And as a small child, you want to believe that your parents are good people, the best in the world. So, I suppressed this memory inside of me for a long time.[4] So I forgot about it, and I was forced to deal with this memory once again when I became an adolescent.

In my time, because of economic reasons, there were still many people, even in Tokyo, who couldn't go to high school, who had to go to work, who couldn't go on school trips, or who had to miss classes for a long time. There were several students like those in every class. And when I became interested in social issues, and, for example, as I compared myself with such kids, or as I became worried about such kids, I realized that there was a terrible fraud at the base of what I was, at the base of my life from the day I was born. But it was scary to confront it, so I pretended to be a sensible, gentle, good boy until I graduated from high school. I studied hard, too.

But I couldn't stand it anymore. I mean, if I had continued, I would have had to keep lying for the rest of my life. So, when I was eighteen, after I entered university, I was forced to deal with it: to think about the issue, what I thought about it, and why I was there then.

It was really painful. Of course I had a fight with my parents. But after all, I couldn't bring myself to ask them why they didn't give her a ride. Because I'm not sure about myself if (it happened) now. If I were in my father's or my uncle's shoes now, I'm not sure if I would stop the car. In other words, if most of the billion pigs are the pigs who would have the girl, I think I would belong to that side.

If there had been a kid who could say "please let her ride," I think maybe a mother and a father would have stopped the car at that moment. I mean, if I'm a parent and my kid says so, I think I would do so. There were many reasons that you couldn't do that. If you had stopped (the car), more people might have come and created more confusion. I understand that well, but I still wish I could've said so then. Or I wish my older brother could've said so. Of course, it would have been better if my parents had stopped (the car).

Actually, this story about the truck has very little to do with the essence of the war. Even if I satisfy my conscience by doing so, how about the issue of the munitions industry? Or, comparing the issue of some being burnt by the air raid and some not and the issue of, for example, Japan as a nation doing many horrible things such as massacres in China, the Philippines, or other countries in South East Asia, I have to conclude that Japanese as a whole were perpetrators, so the problem isn't that simple. But after all those years, I realized that I wanted to make an animation with a kid who can say "please stop the car" in such a situation, not (giving up since) humans can't say so after all.

So, offering a girl a tissue flower and saying "please accept my love" might sound unrealistic. A four year old kid asking his parents, "please stop the car" might be unrealistic. But if there is a kid who can say so, and if we can feel "oh, it's OK to say so in such a situation," I think that would be better. At least, I see myself as a person who can't make a movie in any other way. I saw many movies which depicted the dark side or stupidity of humans and made the audience feel that they were the ones who were accused and then go home depressed, and I think there is a significance to such movies, and we have to watch such movies from time to time, but I want to make something like, "I wish things are like this." It was so in Panda Kopanda. It was so in Totoro. Well, most (of my movies) were like that. I think I have no choice but to keep making such movies.


A person who makes and a person who eats

I had one more experience.

Since it was such a household, we had a maid. Well, we should call them "helpers" now, instead of "maids." I guess it was when I was around six, since the war had been over, that I saw the ohitsu in the kitchen and said, "Oh, that's the ohitsu we eat rice from."[5] Then, the girl said angrily, "in my home, there was nothing we could put in such a thing." I think she was one of those who experienced the severe food shortage while growing up, and her words still remain inside of me very vividly.

I have been very sensitive towards unfairness since the time I was a kid. I think that's because I was a second son. My first memory was that my older brother took my egg, and I cried, thinking there was nothing more horrible than that in this world. -audience laughs-

I thought life was so unfair. I remember feeling so then. I was three years old, so my childhood memory wasn't a good one from the start, but I was a kid who was really sensitive towards unfairness.

There is a Russian Proletarian children's story called Whose bread is it.

The characters are a little red cock, a dog, a cat, and a pig. The cock has wheat seed, and says, "let's sow it," but the other three are playing cards or something, and say "no, we don't want to." So the cock sows it by himself. Then the wheat grows, and when the cock proposes "let's pull the weeds," the dog, the cat, and the pig say "no." When the cock asks them, "help me harvest," the three say "no." So the cock does it by himself. He asks, "help me grind the wheat," and the three say "no." So he grinds it by himself. And then he makes bread, and when he is about to eat it, the three say "let us eat it." The cock says, "this is my bread. I won't give it to you." I remember that I was very much absorbed in reading that story.

For me, that is another important motif. Not only about being fair, but also about who makes it and who eats it. It can be a relationship between production and possession, or it can be a relationship between labor and capital.

I mean, even Mobile Suit Gundam is made by someone. When you create a world in a manga movie (i.e., animation), no matter how imaginary it is, unless someone makes it, no one can eat it. We think that humans work in the fields, farmers work in the fields and make (crops), but if you think deeper, the plants in the field are making (crops) with the power of the sun and photosynthesis. So, if you ask who is making it (possible) to live on this earth, actually, plants are. I mean, including fossil fuel, everything was made by the sun, the sun and plants on the earth. The earth doesn't have more production power than that. If it has, that would be nuclear power or nuclear fusion, but I think everyone knows what kinds of consequences such power would and did bring. In short, you can use it because someone is making it. It is so with electricity. It is so with manga movies. I think that we shouldn't create a world in a manga movie without thinking about such things.

Even Nausicaa, or even Laputa, someone is making it. Someone is making the bread. It's the same with Totoro. Someone is making it. Sci-fi, detective stories, anything. It's the same with Lupin III. If Lupin thinks being a thief is the coolest job, he is the lowest man. He can be a thief because there are honest people. Because there are honest people and there are those who exploit these honest people, he can steal (from the bad guys). I think he is that kind of guy. Even if it's not the movie in which you tell who is making and who is eating out loud, I think we have to realize that there is such a relationship.

There is a movie called Hakujya Den (The Legend of White Snake)-- I was once captivated by it, and it was one of the reasons why I decided to become involved in animation-- and in it, although the white snake is a mononoke, she falls in love with a human. When the Dragon King says "what were you thinking falling in love with a human?" she answers, "a Human has a soul, a very precious thing we don't have." When I watched it, I thought that's not true. Because, all the faces of other people in the movie were drawn indifferently. Only the faces of the handsome hero, Shusen and the heroine, Pai'nyan were drawn in an affirmative way, but others had almost indifferent faces. They were either coolies who pulled ships and got drunk on cheap drinks, or (people) lying wearing rags. At best, they were some kids who were walking the road. I wondered why (she thought that) humans were better, where is the soul. In short, they didn't draw as they spoke.

So, when we are making a movie, I often tell the staff members not to draw the incidental characters indifferently. Especially in Lupin III. Well, the faces of the policemen don't matter so much, but if you draw the faces of other town people indifferently, and make the film, thinking Lupin is cool, this will be the worst kind of movie. Rather, we have to draw the faces of those "others" as well as we can, even if they are characterless, and we have to recognize that because of them, fools like Lupin can go on, and standing on it, (we can make a story in which) he steals a girl's heart. I tell them so. Though, it's difficult to achieve.

As the pig who offers a tissue flower to a girl and never uses violence even if he confines her in a room, I think I should never forget about these two things, and I have to make a movie standing on them.

There might be many contradictions in it, but I can't change it anymore, so I've decided I just have to keep going with it, no matter what people might say.

[此贴子已经被LapuTa于2006-5-10 21:26:59编辑过]
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发表于 2005-9-14 22:59:48 |显示全部楼层

我自己来说两句吧……他幽默……也有我的功劳啊……

我觉得战争那段说的特别有新意……尤其是当战争和作品中“猪”的创意巧妙的结合在一起的时候……电脑屏幕前的我不禁叫绝……

总之很棒就是咯

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发表于 2005-9-20 23:56:38 |显示全部楼层

“我们并不知道劫持了女孩的猪究竟会不会设法去俘获女孩的心。但成千上万的猪中肯定会有这样一头的,而其他那些可能会占有女孩。所以,要么你认为这才是真实的猪,你在片中就要让情节显得更真实;或者你相信即使是万分之一,世界上终究会有一只好猪”

是啊,从某种程度上说,就是这种“猪”的相信才支持我活下去,即使世上并没有这样一只猪,我也要虚构出这样一只猪来,不然我就无法活下去.........

[face=隶书][glow=255,green,1]镜子老矣,唯能饭耳!![/glow][/face]
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发表于 2005-10-8 21:32:59 |显示全部楼层
以下是引用桃夭在2005-9-14 21:55:45的发言:

呵呵,这就是你翻译了很久的那个传说中的长篇么???

果真好长哦!!!!~ 太辛苦你了啊!!!~

文章很好,很有趣,宫崎骏说话蛮幽默的 [em15]

那只猪的故事就是后来的红猪的原型么????我觉得好像是哦,不过红猪又有一点不同了,应该是经过修改了的

HOHO~再接再励哦!!!~~ 支持!!!~

那只猪应该是宫崎骏杂想笔记里的吧~

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画馆特别贡献奖

发表于 2005-10-24 12:48:48 |显示全部楼层

感谢HAKU给予的翻译指正……也欢迎更多朋友为我们挑刺……力求工作精益求精……

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发表于 2005-12-2 23:30:34 |显示全部楼层

说话风趣,这难道就是日本文化受欧美影响?!

话说中国式讲话阿,一个人在讲一些没用的大道理,下面则是睡到一片

It all returns to nothing....... I just keep,letting me down,letting me down,letting me down......
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发表于 2005-12-23 11:31:16 |显示全部楼层

好厉害~呀!对了红猪后来好想变成了人脸!

人には、必ず二つの顔がある。醜い面だけが、あなたのすべてじゃない。 大事なのは、目をそむけずに自分と向き合うこと。その二つの面があってこそ、人なのだから。
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发表于 2006-12-3 15:49:10 |显示全部楼层
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发表于 2007-1-22 10:49:52 |显示全部楼层
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发表于 2007-1-23 12:17:12 |显示全部楼层
握手..握手..萤火虫之墓确实太伤感了...
KiKiのGiGi
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发表于 2007-2-17 11:46:48 |显示全部楼层

拜读中~~

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发表于 2008-7-28 14:57:56 |显示全部楼层
看过了,太好了!很感动!
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发表于 2008-7-29 03:47:09 |显示全部楼层
萤火虫我也不愿再看第二遍,就像纽伦堡审判,辛德勒名单之类的片子,不用看第二遍,恐惧与悲伤深深烙印在心里。而也只能流泪。
当我为这些孩子担忧的时候,会发现从自己出生那天开始,我生命的本源,我赖以生存的基础原来是一个如此大的骗局。面对这样的问题是多么惊恐的一件事情。

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发表于 2008-9-17 08:42:49 |显示全部楼层
终于有个这么敢于面对战争现实的日本人了
喜乐的心,乃是良药
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发表于 2012-1-2 22:41:20 |显示全部楼层
感谢翻译,珍贵的史料
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发表于 2012-4-6 01:31:54 |显示全部楼层
哇哦,谢谢分享
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发表于 2012-4-6 09:35:31 |显示全部楼层
“片子里没有百分之百的坏蛋~”宫老的作品中就是这样,一个伦理世界下得社会^_^
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发表于 2013-7-29 20:16:03 |显示全部楼层

求教

想买台电脑,大家有什么好的建议没有?
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发表于 2013-7-31 22:14:11 |显示全部楼层
看來老宮對豬很有感情呢
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发表于 2013-8-27 17:04:53 |显示全部楼层
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