[原创][翻译]高畑勲与宫崎骏的对话

icytear

高畑勲与宫崎骏的对话

--从东映到吉卜力的30年

Talk: Hayao Miyazaki versus Isao Takahata
"Our thirty years: from Toei Doga to Studio Ghibli"

1995

翻译：Icytear

所有翻译均为动画爱好者交流所用

版权归原作者及所属媒体所有

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东映时代，热血沸腾的我们

I（INTERVIEWER）：高畑勲先生和宫崎骏先生于1955年和1963年先后加入东映，算起来已经是30年前的事情了。而二位建立吉卜力的工作室也已经有了10年历史。今天我就想请二位来谈谈这些往事。
宫崎骏：谈论这些事情不太符合高田的品位吧（大笑），——虽然对我来说也是如此。他也并非那么直爽。
高畑勲：把自己的所作所为当作惊天动地的大事原封不动的倾诉出来真的有难度。
宫崎骏：并非我们从不伤感，而是事情没有想象中的轰轰烈烈。
I：二位相识于1963年。宫崎骏加入东映时只有23岁，而那时已经成为导演助理时高畑勲也不过28岁。
高畑勲：在我们的创业初期，虽然美国已经有了迪斯尼，动画产业还并不繁盛。当当我们真正着手开始工作的时候，似乎这也没有做，那也没有做——虽然我并不这样认为但无论如何，数之不清的事情正等着我们去做——我们也不得不做。——我们也不得不去做。我的生活一直很被动，但一旦遇到绊脚石，我们还是不得不移把它开。
宫崎骏：也有很多情况下我们根本没有移开绊脚石。
高畑勲：我们习惯于说“再加点什么吧”。——那时候，我们还有资本。
宫崎骏：我干这一行缘于50年代观看的一些作品，比如Cross-eyed Tyrant，白雪公主。虽然我觉得自己也许能达到《白蛇传》的水平，我始终认为这些作品是无法企及的——他们有明确的目标，并且真正做到了。简言之，我们还停留在东映的幼儿水平。我们距离那些曾深深鼓舞着我们的作品还差很远。我们一直在思考，如何才能到达颠峰？或者即使无法到达，我们也要清除身畔的拦路石。所以，有很多事情我们一定要做。
I：《太阳王子》就是二位追求的水准吧？
高畑勲：其实这并不是我们刻意追求的。这只是我们的一种尝试，但结果好象很混乱（大笑）一开始，我们仅仅认为它值得一试，所以就毫不犹豫的一头扎下去——我们并不知道前途是多么艰险。无所顾虑促成了我们的前进，也让我们有能力前进。
宫崎骏：在东映时期和现在最大的区别在于，那时候东映仍然像一个组织。东映教授了我们各种东西，比如“孩子们总是喜欢看小动物”，或者“虽然你说的好听，但必须通过一个有名的老故事表达出来，否则是无法保证票房的。”所以那时候，要反抗公司是很容易的事情。然而现在，在与公司的对立中完成一部作品是根本不可能的。公司的基础是如此薄弱，连我们也情不自禁的同情它的处境。
高畑勲：我不知道对于电视媒体和动画产业能否发表相同的评论。每当看到年轻人很急进的试图改变根本不可能改变的事实，我一点也不觉得奇怪——那也不是完全没可能。但当我们在吉卜力工作时，我们就不得不考虑到这些问题 。宫崎骏肩负着所有的重任，包括这家公司。这种艰难和创业初期完全不同。（那时侯）我们总是革自己的命，即使工作仅仅停留在清除绊脚石甚至是自找麻烦的阶段，我们依旧以饱满的热情奋斗着。现在则相反，宫崎骏的作品是如此成功，连我也能理解年轻人感觉东映的日子是如此难过。
宫崎骏：啊，您怎么忘掉您自己了。（大笑）
高畑勲：本来就是这样的啊。我不是说那时的东映并不成功，只是说对于孩子们，（他们的作品）有点艰涩；而宫崎骏的作品很容易让孩子们产生共鸣。所以，东映不得不以此（宫崎骏的作品）为基点。相反的，正如宫崎骏所说，我们的目标是白雪公主这样的作品，但毕竟离它们还有一段距离，所以并未被束缚。但东映和我们的微小差距让他们不得不想方设法追赶、超越，所以日子的确很难过。
I：《太阳王子》是高畑勲纪念价值的处女作，而宫崎骏也参与其中。对完美境界的追求因此更容易了吗？
高畑勲：所谓的完美境界并不是唾手可得的，也并没有太多的东西可以达到这个境界。但我们觉得我们能够用动画架起一座（通向完美境界的）桥梁。剩下的仅仅是循序渐进的过程。
宫崎骏：我们都认为一部电影可以产生令人惊叹的效果。那时候，日本电影业耕耘者的人数戏剧化的衰减，但我们仍创作出了振奋人心的作品。我们感到自己不仅仅是在制作动画，而是在创造电影艺术；所以我们坚信，一定可以通过电影表达自己的心声。
高畑勲：在当今这个信息斑斓的时代，作为表达手段的电影艺术对青年人来说也许是艰难又令人迷惘的，然而事实上（电影）并非如此。年轻人总不习惯看完整部影片，仅仅凭着片面的印象就急于下判断。他们不习惯对什么东西厌恶到不耐烦。只要信任的人说“那个好”，他们就会顺从。但我们则“卤莽”一些，只要自己没有亲身体验就从不赞赏任何人，无论他们多么有名，在其他人口中是多么伟大。
宫崎骏：对待这样的事物我们总是显得很冷淡；我们固执己见，总是说“不，不是这样的”。我不太确定，也许凑巧而已，但宫崎骏和我也都是很激进的（大笑）。而现在的年轻人呢？
高畑勲：恩，毕竟，电影工业正处于衰退中期，所以我们不能简单的把现在和我们的年轻时代相比。但（那时候）我们可以狠狠的奚落我们所厌恶的人。说到激进，举个例子，日本电影圈的人物着实不少，所以即使我们说“小津安二郎的作品一无是处”，也不会引起轩然大波。因为电影业是独立支撑的产业，所以只要我们不喜欢一部片子就可以批判它，无论多少人称赞它。有很多这种类型的谈论，在批评家中有，在电影发行人中也有。电影不是评论就可以击毁的。和那时相比，现在的评价要温和的多。不少评论家都是很“友善”的（大笑）——他们总想挖掘影片的优点，因为大家都努力的很辛苦。我想这是一种趋势。

有着相同志向的伙伴们

I：有很多年轻人都很想成为漫画家。他们作出了怎样的努力？
宫崎骏：当问他们究竟想创作什么时，我发现他们很困惑。理想和现实之间有一道不可逾越的鸿沟。比如，很多人从事这行都是因为小时侯在电视动画中得到了相当的乐趣，所以即使不被肯定，他们还是想做出有“乐趣”的东西——但同样，他们也必须创作一些有深度的片子。（大笑）他们根本还没找到（创作的）支点。所以，如果很正式被问到这个问题，他们会说，有深度的素材才值得创作影片；但如果我逼他们说实话，他们就会怯生生的说，“呃，呃，难道这个年代就不能做一些无忧无虑的冒险故事吗？”虽然他们不太轻易表达真实想法。
高畑勲：我们就不会产生“除了这个我什么也不做”的想法——我们喜欢作出各种尝试，所以可以把一切都进行的很顺利。
宫崎骏：我说过我们很激进。但我们也会这样想，没有趣味也没关系，反正我们创作影片是为了描述人性，影片的内涵才是最重要的。我们总是想，如果人们不来看我们的片子，那是他们的损失。
高畑勲：在《太阳王子》中，我们实践了现实主义表现手法，所以在聚众闹事那一幕，那群村民不是以静止的状态出现的，而是的确行动一致。此前还没有动画采取这样的表现手法。所以，我们至少表达出了一种主题。我们像一个团队，有了目标，并最终实现了目标。
宫崎骏：这种团队精神是有可能被实践的。《王立宇宙軍》就是一个证明。该片的制作者是一群实习期的业余爱好者。２０多岁的他们在制作该片的过程中同吃同住，仿佛工作也是一种生活。
高畑勲：现在回想起来，我们还真是很幸运，因为伙伴们和我们一样的热情。现在，人们总是把“高畑勲和宫崎骏”看做最佳拍档，但仍然有很多伙伴们在尝试着通过动画表达自己的理念。在那段薪水低，工作量大，愁云惨淡的灰色时期，我们互相勉励。正是伙伴们，让我们不但能够与之讨论手头的工作，而且能讨论其他方方面面，动画作品就在这种互动中产生出来。那就是这样一个年代。这些经历让我深深的感到制作电影的捷径首先就是找到同伴。而现在，工作人员被分散开来；比起我们年轻的那个时代，每个人都要更多的展现自我——通过寻找自身的价值和方向，通过互相对立。
宫崎骏：俗话说，三个臭皮匠，顶个诸葛亮。我认同年轻人的才华，但无论如何，他们的才华和我们的还有一定差距。
高畑勲：我们的工作方式仍旧没有太大的变化。我离开东映的时候就没有想过一个人打拼。我在东映的伙伴Yasuo Otsuka邀请了我，当时他正在创作一部非常独特的电视系列剧Mumin。当他邀请我的时候，我叫上了宫崎骏和Youichi Odabe。这是我在反复考虑如何才能巩固我们建立的基业时作出的决定。回想起来，那意味着作为一名导演我是幸运的，因为我总是和最有才华的人一同工作；但当我离开的时候，我考虑的是完全不同的事情。我仿佛完全脱离了战友们的协作圈子。这本不该如此。我总以为只有互相支持我们才能顺利工作。我甚至想，如果有可能，就让我们的这份情谊地久天长。
宫崎骏：那种“个人的力量是有限的”的理念真的很强烈。
I：虽然说历史上没有“如果”，但如果现在高畑勲创作一部像《太阳王子》一样的影片，我想一定会举世瞩目，同时也完全改变您之后作品的风格。
高畑勲：现在有了宫崎骏，这位精力旺盛的青年骏才。如果现在真的拍了这样的片子，应该会出价不菲，然而在当年，它却一文不值，根本一文不值。（大笑）
宫崎骏：《电影旬报》有一篇简短的回顾，一切正如所说。所以，能否让自己满意才是最重要的事情。那时候还没有动漫媒体，没有任何人给我们送来只字片语。所以不断超越自我的满足感才是最重要的，这点毫无疑问。
高畑勲：那时侯，无论人们工作多努力，得到赞誉的只能是很少一部分人。但是现在，即使是最微不足道的工作也可以被赞誉。我想这不是因为多了动漫媒体，而是因为这是一个崇尚自我的年代。9名重要人物构筑了迪斯尼的黄金时代，虽然现在这9人大名鼎鼎，但在当时却是籍籍无名。现在的美国已经相成了非常有特色的分工系统，有人写剧本，有人写storyboards，有人导演；如果漫画家对导演说他想做些改动，导演会说“我无权这么做”。如此清楚的分工让他们形成了强烈的权利意识。于是，合作、共享的动画制作模式已经遇到了危机。
I：这和在东映时期正好相反。
高畑勲：我加入东映时，他们正着手准备Shonen Sarutobi Sasuke。当时一名主要绘制者对导演说“我觉得这样更好一些”，于是经过反复讨论，他们决定采纳这个意见。这样做再自然不过了。
宫崎骏：这很普通。在会议上，会有人问“我可以改动以下脚本吗？”“当然。”于是绘制者在animation sheets上画上小方框."需要多少时间都可以”
高畑勲：然而，也不是所有的人都这样工作。我认为至少需要一个天才，和一个“纵横家”。在某部片子中，虽然宫崎骏还是个新人，他在片中加入某个场景的强烈建议却最终被采纳。
宫崎骏：恩，这个嘛，是因为当我问到“加上这个怎么样”，得到的回答是“当然可以。”（大笑）
高畑勲：恩，情况就是这样。然而，如果每个人都加入他自己的想法，那也会显得很混乱，所以主要工作人员应该控制好。如果我们觉得只要这一个镜头看起来棒就行了然后就随意的增加场景，整个片子就失去了一致性。这也是迪斯尼衰落的原因之一。所以，导演的控制也很重要。
宫崎骏：而且如果你要作出改动，也必须在限定的时间内。就算你可以把自己的各种想法运用到作品中去，不能按时完成任务仍然是很荒谬的事情。那是你的责任。所以，除非你有相当的信任度，你是不能这么做的。否则，人们会觉得你是个乳臭未干爱说空话的小孩子，你只是个大话王。
高畑勲：但现在，这样的事情就很少发生了。如果有可能，当然也有很多人愿意把他人的观点加以运用，但是这太困难了。在很多情况下，导演是不会同意的。当然我也不太确定，因为毕竟没有亲耳听导演们说过，我只是猜测导演们的傲气恐怕是放不下的。
宫崎骏：但那些只在乎自己面子的人是不会有好结果的（大笑）。那种最让人讨厌的人会说“服从吧，我才是导演。”这种人听不进别人的意见，感觉自己的灵魂在世间是独一无二的。
高畑勲：问题就在于没有一个很好的合作团体。
宫崎骏：比如，如果主力的力量很弱小，而绘制人员出色而活跃，那问题就很严重了。如果那样，只有两种解决方法。要么绘制人员自娱自乐，要么只能按照时刻表完成工作。
高畑勲：如果他们根本不活跃，那工作进度会相当快。保证工作进度的最好方法就是，工作人员从始至终都不要兴奋起来。
宫崎骏：但如果他们根本不兴奋，工作就无法进行下去，所以，要取得一种平衡。
高畑勲：但有一种情况是可能发生的。一部相当有趣的电影可以由许多有趣的部分组成。每个人在其中都可以献出自己的主意，休正导演的工作，从中享受这种快乐。所以我很能理解为什么迪斯尼在某个时期采纳了这种方法。

年轻人应该吃苦吗？

I：在东映，采纳别人的意见这类事情也许是可能的，但当你们走了出去，情况是怎么样的呢？
高畑勲：在离开东映以前，TV动画时代已经起步，从而掀起了某种“导演集中制”的热潮，因为根本没有时间去参考别人的意见。时间被限定了，所以我们不得不在短期内完成工作。在这种情况下，权利开始集中在导演手中。当然，我想也是有人反对这种集中制的。
宫崎骏：在参与了一些动画制作后，很多人过早的晋升为导演，而事实上有些是从来没有导演过片子的。所以发生了许多希奇古怪的事情；但同时，也有一些绘制者爬的太快。所以就象俗话说的“破锅自有破锅盖”吧。（大笑）这真是个愚蠢的时代。
高畑勲：然而，积极的方面也是存在的。每个人在不同领域都有了实践的机会。由于这些晋升机会，那些想当导演的人成为了导演，想绘图的人也可以去绘图——人人都可以找到心中的自我。也有很多小问题。也许有人陷入了极大的困窘，也许有人会化压力为动力。所以机会是很多的。这和现今的吉卜力很不相同。现在的新手甚至都没有机会犯错误。
宫崎骏：员工中有很多检测系统的。
高畑勲：暂且不研究这个年代究竟是好还是坏，我只是觉得我们需要以某种方式合作，就像从前我们在东映时的点点滴滴。
I：但面对二位，年轻人不会自惭形秽而有压力吗？
高畑勲：只要你把自己局限在ＴＶ作品中，你就没有机会自惭形秽。但如果你被高畑勲和宫崎骏选中参加一部吉卜力片子的导演，我想你一定会有压力——这就是吉卜力品牌的巨大效应，你觉得自己必须对的起吉卜力这个光荣的称谓。
宫崎骏：他们不是因为我们的要求而感到压力，而是自己给自己施加压力。在很多情况下，他们要么把吉卜力当作假想敌，要么过高的评价了吉卜力，从而给自己造成了极大的压力。所以，当我问“有一部很好的片子，有兴趣导演吗？”，他们都退缩了。
高畑勲：毕竟，宫崎骏是个如此让人敬畏的名字。只要想到宫崎骏对自己的评价，你是一定会自惭形秽的。
宫崎骏：我也想让我的助手们导演，但每次我让他们做事情，他们都退缩了。（大笑）另一方面，又有很多人跑到我面前说“给我个机会吧”。事实上，这样做不太好。我们更信任那些对导演工作的艰难和自己的能力有着清醒认识的人。我们需要的是那些能克服自己的畏惧而仍然想以更高的水准导演片子的人。我们必须找到值得信赖的人，即使吉卜力会破产。
高畑勲：我想如果他们更合理的给自己定位，情况会好一些。我们就是如此。宫崎骏从不说“让我做这个吧”，但是他在工作中坚定的表露了自己。如果谁能够通过这样的方式引起我们的注意，我想我们比较容易接纳他。
宫崎骏：即使让他们心甘情愿的做事情也不太好。高畑勲会说“讲出你们的想法”，但如果他们真的说了，他也会给他们堵回去，一次又一次。于是他们麻木了，困惑了，变的无所适从。
这个年代也许无须面对我们那个年代的难题，但仍然有其他问题。带着自己想要表达的理念走上舞台需要巨大的甚至是残忍的勇气。从我们的角度也许可以说这不是个人表演的舞台，但独断独行也许更有利，一切都是环境造就的，一切都是动画产业的处境造成的。
I：但是，在你们仍在东映的时期，难道它不是日本当时最好的环境吗？
宫崎骏：不是最好的，但也不差。因为没有可比性（大笑），（不过）我个人认为那很差劲。
高畑勲：对于现在的青年人，我们有一项政策，就是让他们到外面的世界闯一闯。我们不能把他们养在吉卜力，他们需要在外面世界的荆棘中展现自己。回想起来，我们也曾在这样的荆棘中一路走过。我们在疯狂的年代做着疯狂的事业。如果呆在吉卜力，你根本无法找到疯狂的激情。所以，曾经在吉卜力的人们走了出去。也许有一天，他们还会回来。
宫崎骏：我想吉卜力天生是不完整的。所以我们可以给残缺的体系加上四肢手足，还有首脑，但如果他天生四肢发达头脑灵便，我们就难以取得更大的进展。吉卜力就是这样的残缺体。所以，当首脑灵感突现，我们就开始了完美的征程；当五指舒展灵便，我们就能随意做出优质的画面。在吉卜力中，有许多诚恳耐心的员工们共同支撑着这个不完整的“孩子”。但他们毕竟不是首脑。
高畑勲：正是如此。我们把宫崎骏当作首脑，所以我们拥有了现在声名斐然的吉卜力——我们的吉卜力按照这个模式已经经营了10年，如果未来出现了新的首脑，和其他动画工作室相比，我们仍旧可以很好的贯彻“残缺”的模式。虽然我也是第一次听到“残缺”这个说法（大笑）。
宫崎骏：我曾多次邀请押井守在吉卜力工作，我们甚至曾经达成了具体的工作协议。但是他一次又一次的以各种借口拒绝了。他好象很畏惧那些象婆婆军一样唠叨的的绘制人员，觉得他们会把他啃蚀的遍体鳞伤，让他没有好日子过。（大笑）
高畑勲：不仅如此，不仅是由于那些“四肢”，更重要的是，他害怕即使他真的成为了“首脑”，另一位“首脑”也会步步紧逼，那就是宫崎骏。
宫崎骏：我不会逼的太紧啦（大笑），而且，这不公平啊，您怎么忘了您自己啊。
高畑勲：但毕竟，宫崎骏才是吉卜力的创造者，所以宫崎骏的存在是很具威慑力的。
宫崎骏：我自己倒没有意识到。
高畑勲：也许押井守也没有意识到，但事实就是如此。

诞生伊始，德间先生的鼎立相助。

I：接着谈谈吉卜力的诞生吧。
高畑勲：一开始，德间书店出版了一本叫Animage的杂志，宫崎骏负责杂志的漫画连载《风之谷》。当然即使是那个时候也是有人关注这部漫画的，但这样一部作品的确是很大的冒险。毕竟，和其他漫画家比起来，宫崎骏根本不是什么人物。德间书店没有秘诀，没有工作室，简直可以说是一无所有。所以我们究竟能做些什么呢？我们遭遇了前所未有的景况，只有工作计划和我们的“首脑”宫崎骏，此外一无所有。所以，除了建立一家工作室，我们别无选择。
所以，在反复考虑之后，我们决定与一家叫做Topcraft的动画公司合作。然而，我相信德间书店很有诚意在日本国内发展动画业，所以我们一定要以长远的目光很负责的对待——我们那种在有工作计划时租一家工作室，任务完成就解散的方法是远远不够的。所以，我们决定成立吉卜力。我一直劝说Hara加入我们，我甚至把工作室全部倾注在Hara、宫崎骏, 和铃木敏夫身上，虽然我知道，这么做有点不公平。
宫崎骏：一开始，我们打算一完成工作就解散工作室，等下一次准备工作再重组人员，但最终，我们保留了它。通常，一家工作室在3年或者3项工作完成之后就开始走下坡路，所以，我一直把“3年3计划”当作目标。但当我们完成了3项任务，仍然决定将动画制作继续下去，于是一点一点的改革开始了。薪水的稳定，保证了我们员工的生命力。这个过程和动画产业的发展方向完全相反，但也是有可能的，因为我们有德间先生，他总会是说“放手做吧！”
高畑勲：在某种意义上，这很大程度上取决于德间书店是一家出版商，当然德间先生本人起了很大的作用。与漫画家合作是出版商的任务，所以他们很优待漫画家，也很重视他们。我想他们是很有合作热情的。
宫崎骏：德间书店有尊重漫画家的氛围。但是，电影圈里到处都是那些指望着靠操纵老手为自己服务而发家的人，而很多人也泥足深陷了。所以他们不会让我们轻易的如愿以偿。另外还有东映的制作人铃木敏夫。虽然他自己不抛头露面，却是一个天才的煽动者，能很轻易的调动大众的情趣。（大笑），他的贡献太巨大了啊。要不是他，吉卜力就根本不会诞生。
高畑勲：《龙猫》和《萤火虫之墓》是同时发行的，我们总是被告知：“看完《龙猫》感觉真是好，但《萤火虫之墓》却将我们陷入深渊。但是，除了联合发行我们别无选择。这多亏了铃木敏夫-san和其他人的灵活处理。在制作完《风之谷》和《天空之城》以后，（大家都认为）要是制作多一些这类题材的影片，德间书店可能会更风光，所以人们根本无法想象这样一部关于田间怪兽的片子。另一方面，新潮社也很想涉足电影界。于是铃木敏夫和其他人联系了他们在新潮社的朋友，并提出了《萤火虫之墓》的制作计划。最终，新潮社的老总决定接受这个提议。德间书店向新潮社表明有拍摄《龙猫》的计划，但我觉得事实上他们并未确定。（大笑）
宫崎骏：当德间书店评估了《龙猫》和《萤火虫之墓》的收益，他们做出了很确定的结论：每一部片子将损失5000万美圆！德间先生那时说，我们回给新潮社造成相当的麻烦。（大笑）他就是那种会说这种话的人（大笑）。但是他们已经做好了赔钱的准备。新潮社是一着90多年悠久历史，比德间书店还要古老的著名出版商，他们的老总亲自致电德间书店，最终促成了双方的合作，这真是个奇迹。然而最终，双方都获得了利润。
高畑勲：为了更精确的计算（收益），我们稍后才谈到利润。我们不可以从影片的公映中得到收益。本来制作成本由两方分担，但我们只赚的了一方利润。
宫崎骏：收回成本是一条漫长的道路。但在这种情况下，无论我们给工作室造成多大的麻烦，除了一直坚信能够收回成本并且有额外收益，我们别无选择。毕竟我们总是给工作室找麻烦。（大笑）
高畑勲：我们是很幸运的，但如果我也很大胆，那么整个吉卜力将陷入争论的漩涡。但现在为止，我们已经发现，只要直接的把你的最大能力表现出来，你就可以站稳脚跟。
I：现在回想起来，你可以这样想。但在《风之谷》和《天空之城》中宫崎骏担任导演，高畑勲担任制作人，难道就没有意见不能统一的时候？
高畑勲：我们都是那种固执己见的人，包括铃木敏夫，所以我们只要想到“这种方法才行，我们不能随心所欲”，我们就会很不习惯。在此之前我从来没有导演过影片，也从未想过自己有这个机会。所以我们只能这样继续下去。
宫崎骏：所以，我们并没有那种“面对一大堆选择冥思苦想到底那一个更赚钱”的机会，我们仅仅是别无选择。事实上，除了这样做也没有什么其他方法。情况常常是如此，所以就像我常常说的，即使我有什么计划，片子还是它原来的样子，我只能围着它转。这和真实情况是很接近的。很多没有预料到的事情无可避免的发生了，我们也不再欺瞒片商。在《侧耳倾听》中也是如此。我们把各种毫无意义的小片段用如此怪异的方法联系起来。（大笑）
之后，我们决定在各个领域都进行尝试，所以这种混乱的情况就结束了。比如，在《侧耳倾听》中我们运用了Digital Dolby（一种先进的配音技术），但我们却得知在日本运用这项技术是很大的冒险。要知道，在日本电影制作前期声音录制的过程中还没有花费如此大的时间和金钱的传统。我们也没有那个习惯，所以我们总是根据时间限制来绘制，之后在最短的时间内加入声音。所以，这次能用来录音的时间简直是微乎其微。
高畑勲：是这样的，但换句话说，这只是由于环境造成的。我们不得不一直追寻着我们工作的脚步。当然这和时间表以及制作成本有一定冲突，所以我们根本不能按照自己的方式，但Dolby确实被运用了。通常，如果你做什么与众不同的事情，就是把它当作卖点，吹嘘你是用了很多电脑特技和数字成分的——这没什么可骄傲的，你只是为环境所迫才不得已而为之——于是你用了点小手段，看起来还真象那么回事。然后，你可以更有效率的利用这种技术，你可以更理性的思索。吉卜力就是一个提供平台的地方。

吉卜力会继续下去吗？

高畑勲：工作中面对困难该如何处理？进度的推迟或超支这类困难是常常发生的，但你能够扭转乾坤吗？或者说，这是环境所迫，但如果预算是个问题，你能想出收回更多成本的方法吗，或者你能设法增加片商的投资吗？铃木敏夫总是选择后一种方法，他倾向于用激进的方式解决问题——这就是我们的工作方式。
I：吉卜力基层是如此的一个梦幻组合，但成长中的年轻人却不得不在互相冲突中靠着天分脱颖而出，那之后，璞玉般的他们被打造的日渐完美。
宫崎骏：对高畑勲也是如此。但我们年轻的时候，制作影片时从不考虑谁是导演谁是其他什么，我们不考虑那么细，所以也没有必要层层检验。
高畑勲：那很重要。员工间的活跃讨论看起来很精彩，其实则不然。其实在着手工作之前就应该完成这类事情——必须如此。
宫崎骏：也可能到某个年龄就，（这种情况）就结束了，但我们的确有这样的经历。三个臭皮匠，顶个诸葛亮。我之前也这样说过，但人多嘴杂，反而会适得其反。除非核心有着极强的凝聚力。所以当铃木敏夫要拍海蒂，情况就是这样的：“——海蒂如何？——既然你决定了，我一定支持。”所以，我不必说明我要导演还是做什么其他的事情，不需要“大家一起干吧”这样的豪言壮语，“你做这个，我做那个”就好了。我们都很清楚我们的职责，不需要什么讨论。
高畑勲：我们就是这样成长起来的，我们一直都是如此。许多员工从一开始就追随我们，新的员工也逐渐加入。我觉得对下一代也许景况会困难。我的意思是说要让年轻一代参与到工作中来，我们必须牺牲掉他们很多的东西，因此，他们可能会失去那些构筑个人世界的特质。
宫崎骏：坦白的说，我们是在消耗他们……仿佛吞噬一般——我也很有负罪感。他们中有许多人从十几二十岁开始就跟着我们，现在已经步入而立之年；但仿佛一旦吉卜力结束，他们也将失去艺术生命。
高畑勲：不，不是这样的啊（大笑）
宫崎骏：我们称他们为伙伴，但这是个模糊的概念。虽然我们在一起的时间并不很长，但我们恰好遇上，恰好有相同的目标——这就是伙伴。这并不是那种“无论他们作的多么糟糕，我们仍要一起工作”的关系。
I：所以，年轻人和高畑勲宫崎骏一起工作的时候要小心被他们“吃”了哟。
宫崎骏：如果年轻人真的被“吃”了，那也很好啊。不然他们该怎么办啊？他们可能走更多弯路。（大笑）但如果才华纵横的新人崭露头角，他可能会显得很让人讨厌。我们大概会觉得这是个多么傲慢自大的新人啊。（大笑）
高畑勲：想想宫崎骏，如果他早一点开始导演生涯，也许会有更多的杰作。有时候我也会反省，让他跟着我干真是一种埋没人才的残忍。但最终，我也不得不“断定”，那段经历对他是很有益处的（大笑）。
宫崎骏：有一次有人对我说，如果不是遇到了高畑勲，我可能会做出更大的成绩。当时我根本无法理解。后来渐渐体会到一些，但仍觉得这么说实在太愚蠢了。因为作为一名绘制者我从未抱怨过。如果我把自己的工作定位在用某种形式表达自我，展示自我甚至是炫耀自我，那可能会做的很差劲。
现在，人们已经把吉卜力当作主流公司。但这里一直是最有冒险精神的地方。《侧耳倾听》取材于一部少女漫画。即使在内部也很多人都置疑，为何要在这个时期改编一部少女漫画；连我们自己在着手工作前心里也没有底。但这是一项令人热血沸腾的工作。虽然我们并非有意，但在完成工作的过程中，我们放弃了很多谎言。我觉得每一次开始一项工作，我们都是开始了新一轮的历险。
高畑勲：所以，我们不会选择那种被人们一眼认出的方式。我们总是选择了一些看起来成功机会不大的工作，因为不是从所谓的“安全”作品（在票房保证方面）中挑选出来做的。
宫崎骏：我一直都说“不要把吉卜力想象成一成不变的，不要因为你在吉卜力工作就舒泰，不要愚忠！！”如果作品走下坡路，那么工作室也会走下坡路。然而，稍有常识的人也知道只有赚了钱才可以改善工作环境，不能因为冒险就使收益萎缩。但认为只要改善了工作环境就可以做出好作品也是大错特错。好的作品即使在恶劣的环境中也能创造出来。所以，我不想把这些混为一谈，我也不想说什么“吉卜力的不老神话”。我总是告诉我的员工，只要你有实力，在哪里都可以工作。
关于高成本，虽然对提高作品质量很有必要，但也限制了我们的选择，正如高畑勲所说，是剥夺了年轻人“吃苦”的权利。比如，我们创造了中间检测系统，但我想做一些改动。于是，透明片绘制者可能会抱怨他们画不出这种素材，然后就会转交给原画作者，下一次他就会更小心。如果发生了这种事情，在不同部门之间就会有很活跃的人际交往。但一旦各个部门的人员被确定下来，再割断其中的联系就很困难了。部门的变动应当伴随着其中人员的变动，否则就会“动脉硬化”而僵死。
高畑勲：我们把这个系统作为及时完成任务的润滑剂。
宫崎骏：我们选的题材总是很宽泛。发行方和投资商每次看到片子的第一幕都会大惊失色。当然，其实最担心的是我们自己，但我听说每次德间书店都会召开紧急会议，研究是否需要减少公映影院的数目。（大笑）幸运的是，现在吉卜力的片子有良好的声誉，虽然未来很可能不再如此。但我们仍旧不想按照题材的运作前景为基准进行选择。
I：二位认为吉卜力前景如何？
宫崎骏：恩，即使它明天就破产也没关系（大笑）。谈论这样的事情没意义。
高畑勲：恐怕很有意义。
宫崎骏：我的时间不多了，我可不想在被粘在这张画桌上结束自己的生命。
有一次我去了YAKU岛，那里真的很不错。我想在自己还能绕山而行的日子里到那里生活一年。（大笑）只要我在那里呆一年，无论多么爱下雨，也总会有晴天的日子。
高畑勲：是的，我们现在正筹备下一部片子，所以只能继续下去。
宫崎骏：那些从来没有为环保宣誓的人们一旦环绕着山的巍峨，就会感觉到环保是多么伟大的事业。所以他们狩猎的时候，会被自己的良心湮没，颤抖了双手。
高畑勲：他们似乎已经开始意识到在图画上欣赏美丽的绿景和真正融入自然之绿的巨大区别，我想这对他们很有意义。我们就是想通过动画创造这样一个真实的世界，这样一种存在的感觉。但是想象中的世界和真实毕竟相差太大。我已经开始有这种感觉。我在思索着创造真实图景到底有什么意义。
宫崎骏：毕竟，我们还停留在原始的本能行为的水平上。
高畑勲：我想新鲜事物的出现，新鲜事物对旧事物的冲击一定会让世界更有色彩。
宫崎骏：世界上有很多难题。那些不得不担负起这些难题的不是我们，而是那些不停的在工作中利用着自然的人民。毕竟，除了做好自己想做的事情，我们也无法多说什么。
高畑勲：虽然他这么说，我想他还是会努力工作的（大笑）。毕竟，吉卜力下一部片子还要靠宫崎骏呢。

1995年5月29日，吉卜力工作室

[此贴子已经被桃夭于2006-5-17 23:22:17编辑过]

icytear

英文原文 Key to the dialog
I:	Interviewer Masaaki Nomura
M:	Hayao Miyazaki
T:	Isao Takahata

The Toei Doga era, when we were aggressive

I: Takahata-san joined Toei Doga (Toei Animation Studio) in 1955, Miyazaki-san in 1963, so it's been thirty years since then. And it's been ten years since you established Studio Ghibli. I want to ask you about these years today.

M: It's not Paku-san's taste to tell such things, -laughs- though it's the same for me, too.[1] He isn't that straightforward, either.

T: It's very difficult to tell people what oneself has been doing just as it happened, as something important.

M: It's not that we don't get sentimental from time to time, but it wasn't that big a deal.

I: You two met in 1963. Miyazaki-san joined Toei Doga at the age of twenty three, and at twenty eight years old Takahata-san was already working as a director's assistant.

T: When we started working, there wasn't much animation, though there was Disney in the United States. When I actually tried to do (animation), it was like we hadn't done this, we hadn't done that, well, I didn't think that way, but anyway, there were countless things we hadn't done. So, there were many things we had to do. My life has been a very passive one, but it was like: if there was a stone, we had to move it.

M: There were so many things we were doing without removing stones.

T: And (we tried to do things) such as "let's add this." It was a time when we could do such things.

M: I entered into this industry because I saw works in the 1950s, such as Cross-eyed Tyrant or Snow Queen.[2] I thought maybe I could manage (to reach the level of) Hakujyaden but anyway, I thought they were far above, in terms of what they tried to do, and what they accomplished.[3] We were, in short, at the level of "Toei kids' stuff." The gap between our level and the works we were inspired by was too big. We thought how could we climb up there, or even if we couldn't, let's remove the stones around us. So, there were many things we had to do.

I: And Horus was where you wanted to reach.

T: It was not something to reach, but just a thing we tried to do, but it became such a big fuss. -laughs- In the beginning, we thought it was worth doing, so we just jumped into it blindly. We didn't know how tough it was going to be. We just proceeded without knowing, or we could proceed (because we didn't know)...

M: The big difference between the time we were working at Toei Doga and now is that the company still existed as an organization (then). The company told us various things, such as "kids would love to see small animals," or "well, you say so, but unless you do a well known classic story, tickets won't sell." So it was easy for us to fight against the company. But these days, it's impossible to make (anime) while fighting against the company. The foundation of these companies are so weak that we can't help but understand their difficulties.

T: I don't know if we can say the same thing about the whole industry of current TV and animation. I wouldn't be surprised if some young people emerge trying to overcome something which can't be moved. I don't think that's absolutely impossible. But, when we work at Ghibli, we have to work while also considering these things. Miya-san is working with everything on his back, including the company. So, it's really difficult. It's totally different from the time when we started our career. We rebelled against what had been done, and we could work with enough enthusiasm even if that meant we were just removing stones, or placing one or two stones. On the contrary, now, Miyazaki animes are so successful, so I can kind of understand why young people feel it's so tough.

M: Well, you are forgetting about yourself. -laughs-

T: But, that's basically it. I don't mean that Toei Doga animes at that time weren't successful, but I think the meaning (of them for young people?) was different. Young people sympathize when they see Miya-san's works. So, they have to start from that point. On the contrary, as Miya-san said, we had such works as Snow Queen or Cross-eyed Tyrant towering (over us), but they were a bit far-off, so we could start without being captivated by them. However, they see the works we are making close-up, and then they have to climb up, stepping on (our works). I think that might be tough.

I: Horus: The Prince of Sun was Takahata-san's memorable debut, and Miyazaki-san volunteered to work on it. Was it easier for you to approach what was towering?

T: Those which were towering weren't close to us, and there weren't many. But we could see that we could do such things with animation, and this was the work worth doing. The rest of it was just step by step.

M: We thought a movie could do amazing things. At that time, the Japanese movie population was dramatically decreasing, but we still had many inspiring movies, and we thought we were making movies, not just animation, so we firmly believed that movies were something in which we could express something.

T: As for the young people now, I thought it would have been difficult and confusing for them since there is so much information, but actually, it isn't so. They choose only with partial judgment since they can't delay choosing till they see the whole picture. And they are accustomed not to get irritated or impatient about it. And if someone they trust says "that's good," they respond really obediently. But we were more impudent, and we didn't appreciate anyone if we didn't think they were good, no matter how famous they were or supposedly great.

M: We were indifferent toward such things, and we stuck to our opinions, saying "no, it isn't." I don't know, maybe we happened to be that way, but both Paku-san and I were very aggressive. -laughs- How about the young ones these days?

T: Well, after all, the movie industry is in the middle of a long decline, so we can't simply compare now with our young days, but we were able to denigrate whomever we wanted to really severely. Speaking of aggressive, for example, the popularity of Japanese movies wasn't so weak, so it wouldn't have tumbled even if we had said "Ozu's movie is nothing."[4] Because the movie industry was standing on its own, we could attack a movie if we thought it wasn't good, no matter how much everyone else said it was good. We had those kinds of conversations, not only among film critics, but also among movie goers. And movies weren't something which would be broken by that. Compared to back then, the responses are gentle these days. Critics, too, many of them are "critics with love." -laughs- Many of them try to find good points (in a movie) because (those who made the movie) tried really hard. I think there is such a tendency.

THe work with nakama who had the same ambition

I: There are many young people who want to be animators. What kind of approach do they take?

M: When I ask them what they want to make, I can see that they are apparently confused. There is a gap between what they want to make and what they have to make. For example, some started working (in this industry) because they had such fun watching TV anime when they were kids, and they want to do that kind of "wow, this is fun!" thing even if they don't get much praise, but they also think they have to make some difficult movie after all. -laughs- They haven't decided their stance yet. So, if they are asked formally, they say that the difficult stuff is worth making, but if I pressure them to tell the truth, they murmur "Er, can't we do worry-free adventure stories anymore in this era?" Though they don't show their true colors that easily.

T: We didn't think "we absolutely don't want to make anything but this." We were able to go on because we were willing to work on anything.

M: I said that we were aggressive, but we were able to think in such a way that it's OK if it's not fun, cause we make (movies) to depict humans, and the important thing is that the movie has a meaning. (We thought) if people won't see the movie, it's their fault. -laughs-

T: I think what we accomplished with Horus was that we were able to make realistic expression, so that in the mob scene, it wasn't just that there were a bunch of villagers, but that the villagers were together doing something. There had been no anime like that. So, at least we expressed that, and there was a theme in the expression. So, we wanted to do such a thing, and actually did it, working as a group.

M: It's still possible. I think The Wing of Honneamise is the proof of that. Those who made it were amateurs in terms of experience. In their mid twenties, they made it by themselves living and eating together, with no distinction between the work and their private lives.

T: Now, thinking back, we were lucky since we had our nakama who shared the same ambition.[5] Now, people talk about "Miyazaki and Takahata" as a pair, but there were many nakama who tried to express (something) in animation. In the unsatisfied situation with low pay, heavy workloads, frustrations, and such things, we talked with each other. We had nakama with whom we could talk not only about the work we were doing, but also about other things, and anime was made out of those (kinds of interactions). It was that kind of era. Speaking from this experience, I think the quick path to make a movie is first, to get nakama. Right now, people are separated individually, and they are required to show their individualities, more now than in the time when we were young, but they can do it by looking for their values or the direction they want to go, by confronting each other.

M: If three talented people get together they should be able to accomplish many things, and I think young people have the talents. It's not like we had so much talent anyway.

T: The way we act hasn't changed much. When I quit Toei Doga, I didn't even think about going out alone. Yasuo Otsuka-san, who invited me, used to be my nakama at Toei Doga, and he was creating a very unique TV series called Mumin at that time.[6] When he asked me to come, I asked Hayao Miyazaki and Youichi Odabe to go with me.[7] This was my conclusion after I thought about how we could utilize what we had been building up. Thinking back, it might just mean that I was fortunate as a director because I was always able to work with the talented people, but when I moved there, I was thinking totally different things. It was completely out of comradeship. It wasn't about I. I just thought that we were going to make it by supporting each other. I even thought, if possible, we would endure for all our lives.

M: The feeling of "one can only do so much" was really strong.

I: There is no "if" in history, but if Takahata-san made a movie like Horus now, I feel that it would have gotten attention from inside and outside Japan, and it would have completely changed the direction of your works after that.

T: Here is an energetic young man with a huge talent, named Hayao Miyazaki. If that were to happen now, there should be many offers, but at that time, there was nothing. Absolutely nothing. -laughs-

M: There was a short review in Kinema Junpo, and that was it. So, the most important thing was whether we could do the work which would satisfy ourselves. There was no anime journalism yet, and no one sent us a letter or anything, so the important thing was whether one could have a sense of doing a somewhat better job than before. So there was no room for doubts.

T: At that time, no matter how hard one worked, only a limited number of people got their names credited. But now, even the smallest job can get credited. I think it's because of this era appreciating individuals, rather than because of anime journalism. There were the nine very important members who made the golden era of Disney anime, and now the "Nine Old Men" are famous, but at that time, no one knew about them. Right now, there is a very distinctive functional job system in the United States. There are people who write scripts, who write storyboards, who direct, and if an animator said to the director that he wants to change something, the director would say "I'm not authorized to change it." There is a very clear distinction among functions, and they have a strong sense of rights. Therefore, it is very difficult to incorporate each member's various ideas and work together to make an anime.

I: It was the opposite at Toei Doga.

T: When I joined Toei Doga, they were preparing for Shonen Sarutobi Sasuke.[8] For example, a key animator in the project said to the director, "I think this is better," and after talking it over, they decided to incorporate that idea. It was natural for them to do such things.

M: It was an ordinary thing. In a meeting, "Can I change the e konte (story boards) a bit?" "Sure." (An animator) drew small squares on animation sheets, not e konte sheets, and since he didn't know the number of seconds (for the sequence to take), "I'll take whatever seconds it'll require."

T: Not all the people were working like that, though. I think you need a talent and a persuasive power after all. In a certain feature film, although Miya-san was just a rookie, he strongly insisted and succeeded in adding a certain sequence into the movie.[9] -laughs-

M: Well, that's because when I asked "how about doing this?" I was told "oh, sure"... -laughs-

T: Well, that was the situation. However, if everyone just brings his/her own ideas in, there will be no consistency, so the main staff have to have tight control. If we just expand a scene freely, thinking it'll be enough if this scene looks great, there will be no consistency throughout the film. That was one of the reasons for Disney's decline. So, the director's control is also important.

M: And if you do it, you have to do it within the time frame. It's absurd if you can't finish your work on time even if you are allowed to incorporate various ideas of your own. That's your responsibility. So, you can't do it unless you are trusted. Otherwise, people will think you are just a brat talking nonsense. (People will think) you are just a big mouth.[10]

T: But these days, that kind of thing rarely happens. There are some people who are willing to incorporate other people's willingness in that manner, if possible, but it's difficult. In many cases, directors just refuse. I'm not sure since I didn't hear this from the director's side. I guess the director's pride won't allow it.

M: But those who care about their own pride aren't good. -laughs- The worst ones say something like "obey me. I'm the director." That kind of person can't listen to other people's suggestions. He feels as if his whole self is rejected.

T: The problem is that you can't have a good ensemble.

M: For example, if the main staff are weak, and the e konte are totally useless, but the animators are talented or motivated, it's gonna be a disaster. In that case, there are two ways. Either you enjoy yourself animating what you want, or you just proceed and finish working as scheduled.

T: When they aren't motivated, the work progresses really quickly. The best way to guarantee finishing within the schedule is if the staff members never get motivated at all.

M: But if they don't get motivated, they won't work at all, so you need a certain balance.

T: But the first case could be possible. You can create a great fun movie with a lot of fun parts.[11] Everyone can offer his/her own ideas and can change (the direction), having fun. I can understand why Disney, in a certain period, took this approach.

Should young people get embarrassed?

I: That kind of thing (i.e., incorporating other people's ideas) was possible at Toei Doga, but what was the situation like when you went outside (of Toei Doga)?

T: Before we quit Toei Doga, the era of TV animation had started, and it brought a sort of "director-centralism" in, because there was no time to do such things. Since the air date was given, we had to make it in a short time. In this situation, the power started to be concentrated in the director. Of course, I think there were people who opposed to it.

M: To make a number of anime, many people were promoted prematurely to directors, and actually, people who had never directed became directors. So, many odd things happened, but at the same time, animators were also promoted prematurely, so every Jack had his Jill. -laughs- It was really a stupid time.

T: Well, there was also a positive side to it. Everyone was able to have actual experiences in various things. Because of the promotion, at least those who wanted to be directors could direct, and those who wanted to be animators could animate. Which meant that one could know about oneself. There was a lot of this trial-and-error. Well, you get embarrassed enormously, but those who can take it as an embarrassment will make progress because of it. So there were many opportunities for that. The chances to get embarrassed were increased. It's totally opposite in present day Ghibli. Rookies have no chance to get embarrassed (by making mistakes).

M: There are many check systems among staff.

T: Regardless of whether it was a good era or not, I feel that we need to incorporate, in some form, the chaos we had in the beginning of the TV anime era.

I: But facing Miyazaki and Takahata, don't young people get intimidated, or feel pressure?

T: Well, while you are embarrassing yourself in such works as TV, you don't have the time to get intimidated. But if you are chosen by Miya-san to direct a so-called Ghibli anime, I think you feel pressure because there is this "Ghibli brand," and you think you have to make something worth that name.

M: They get pressured not because of our demands. Rather, they put pressure on themselves. In many cases, people create pressure on their own by making Ghibli a hypothetical enemy, or by appreciating Ghibli too much. So, they run away when I say "there is an interesting project. Won't you direct it?"

T: Well, after all, Hayao Miyazaki is such a formidable figure. You get intimidated if you think about what Miya-san will say about it.

M: I wanted to let my assistants do (the direction), but when I told them "do this," everyone ran away. -laughs- On the other hand, there are people who come to us and say "let me do this," but actually, that kind of person isn't good. We can trust better those who know themselves and think that directing isn't that easy. We need to meet someone who overcame that and still wants to direct in one level higher. (We have to meet) someone on whom we can stake (a project?) even if Ghibli would go bankrupt.

T: It's better if they assert themselves in some tangible way. I think we were like that. Miya-san didn't say "let me do this," but, he asserted himself really strongly (through his work). If there is someone who gets our attention like that, we may be able to stake (a project?) on him/her.

M: It's no good even if we make them want to do it. Paku-san says "tell your opinion," but if they do, he fires back at them. Three times, ten times more. They get stupefied, get dizzy, not knowing what to do.
This era might not have the difficulties which our era had, but there are other difficulties. It needs a huge violent courage for new people to come out with what they want to express. In our case, we can say that it wasn't just self-display, but it was easier for us to be assertive because of many things such as the atmosphere of the time or the situation which animation was in.

I: But, wasn't Toei Doga when you two were there the best environment in Japan at that time?

M: There was no best or worst. There was nothing to compare with. -laughs- I myself thought it was the worst place.

T: For the young people these days, we have a policy to let them go knight-errant (outside of Ghibli). Not raising them here, but letting them go outside to expose them to the roughness of the outside world. Thinking back, we experienced this kind of roughness. We did crazy works in the crazy era. If you are here, you can't do crazy works. So, people who once were here went outside. Maybe, there will be an opportunity for them to come back someday.

M: I think Ghibli is like this: Ghibli is a torso. If we have a firm torso, you can put arms, a head, or legs on it, but without a torso, you can't do good work just with arms or heads. Ghibli is basically a torso. So, if a good head comes, we can have a good project. If a good hand comes, the hand can do good work as it pleases. In Ghibli, there are honest and patient staff members who support the torso. But they are not a head.

T: In that example, we have Hayao Miyazaki as a head, and we have Ghibli as we know now. We had ten years of Ghibli in such a form. In the future, if another head comes, we can still show the very strong competence as a torso, compared to other studios. Though I heard this story of Ghibli being a torso for the first time here. -laughs-

M: I told Mamoru Oshii many times that he should work at Ghibli.[12] We even had a concrete project once.[13] But, every time, he declines, making excuses. He seems to fear that the animators, like a bunch of nagging relatives, will peck him all over, and give him a hard time. -laughs-

T: No, not just that. Not just about the torso. He fears even if he became a head, there would be another head attached right next to it, called Miyazaki. -laughs-

M: I won't meddle too much. -laughs- That's not fair, Paku-san, you are forgetting about yourself.

T: But after all, Miya-san is the one who makes Ghibli. So his presence is a huge one.

M: I myself am not aware of it.

T: Maybe he isn't aware of it, but it is so.

In the beginning, there was President Tokuma

I: Let's move on to the story of how Ghibli was created.

T: First, Tokuma Shoten (Tokuma Publishing Co.) had a magazine called Animage, and Miyazaki-san was writing the manga Nausicaa for it. Of course there were people who paid attention to it even back then, but it was a huge gamble to make an animation based on it. After all, compared to other manga writers, Hayao Miyazaki wasn't famous or anything. And Tokuma Shoten had no know-how, no studio, nothing. So what were we to do? We were confronted by a situation which was totally different from the one we grew up in. We had a project to do, and we had a head, Hayao Miyazaki, but nothing else. So, we had no choice other than forming a new studio.
So, after some considerations, we decided to work with a studio called Topcraft. However, I asserted that if Tokuma Shoten was seriously going to produce animation in Japan, we had to do it responsibly, with a long term view, not just doing it when we had a project, renting some studio and then disbanding it (after the project has completed). So, it was decided to form Ghibli. I persuaded Hara-san (Toru) to come, and I dumped all the operation (of Ghibli) on him, Miya-san, and Suzuki-san.[14] Though I guess it was an unfair thing to do.

M: In the beginning, we were planning to disband (the studio) once we finished the project, and if we got another project, then we would gather staff members again, but we would at least keep the place. Usually, an organization gets stagnated after three years or three projects, so I was saying "three years, three projects." So, once we had made three projects, we changed the organization little by little. We changed it so that we could guarantee the livelihood of animators with fixed pay, based on the decision that we would keep making (anime). It was totally opposite to the direction the anime industry was heading, and it meant we had to take risks, but it was possible because we had a person like Tokuma-san who said "Go!" as he's always been saying.[15]

T: In a sense, it's largely due to the fact that it's a publishing company. And of course President Tokuma, in particular, is a large part of it. It's the job of publishing companies to cooperate with writers, so they respect writers and stake (the future?) on them. I think they have that kind of willingness (to cooperate).

M: Tokuma Shoten had such an atmosphere that they respected writers. But, the movie industry is filled with people who find satisfaction in finding out how successfully they can manipulate the old-hands into doing what they want, and there are many people who got burned (in the movie industry), so they wouldn't let us make (what we want) so easily. Another thing is the presence of Producer Suzuki (Toshio). Although he himself doesn't come out in public, he is a baby boomer who loves to manipulate the general public, -laughs- and his contribution has been enormous. If it weren't for him, there wouldn't be a Ghibli.

T: Totoro and Grave were double billed, and we were often told, "We felt so good when we finished watching Totoro, but we were thrown into the abyss by Grave." But, we had no choice other than combining these two films. It was made possible only through Suzuki-san and others' maneuvering. After making Nausicaa and Laputa, Tokuma Shoten would've been happier if we had made more of these kinds of films, and they didn't feel that they knew what to do with something like the monsters in Tokorozawa.[16] On the other hand, Shinchosha wanted to learn how to make animation.[17] So, Suzuki-san and others contacted their friends at Shinchosha and promoted this project (Grave). Then, the president of Shinchosha finally decided to go ahead with it. To Shinchosha, Tokuma Shoten pretended that they were going to make Totoro, but in truth, they hadn't decided yet, I think.[18] -laughs-

M: When Tokuma Shoten estimated (the return) of Totoro and Grave, they reached the inevitable conclusion that each one would lose ¥50 million. President Tokuma said, then, "We are going to be giving Shinchosha some trouble." He is the kind of person who says such things. -laughs- But they were prepared (to take this loss), and the president of Shinchosha, the ninety-some year old prestigious publishing company, the company, older than Tokuma Shoten, called (Tokuma) personally, and that made (Tokuma) decide "let's do it." I thought that was a miracle. In the end, they both made a profit, though.

T: To be more precise, they made a profit only later. We couldn't make money through the theater release. It took the production costs for two films, but we only earned for one.

M: It takes a long time to recover (the investment). But in that case, we have no choice but to think that we are going to recover the investment and make some plus in the end, no matter how much trouble we cause the studio at that time. After all, we are always causing trouble (for the studio). -laughs-

T: Well, we were lucky, but if I can be so bold, Ghibli is the place where a just argument wins. Up to now, I think we can show that if you do the work as good as you possibly can, in a straightforward way, you can survive.

I: Now, looking back, you may be able to think that way, but when Miyazaki-san was the director and Takahata-san was the producer, as in Nausicaa or Laputa, wasn't there a time when you couldn't follow the just argument?

T: Including Producer Suzuki, we are the kind of people who can't think in any other way. So, we were too inexperienced to think things like "this is the way it is, we can't have our way." I had never produced a film before that. I didn't even think I could. So, we had no choice but to push straight.

M: So, we don't choose a project by thinking "among the various choices we have, this one has the best chance to make money," rather, it's just that there is no other choice. -laughs- In truth, we can't do anything other than doing that. It's always been so. So, as I always say, even if I have a plan, a movie will turn out to be the movie (as it is), and I just follow behind it since I have no choice. I think that's closer to what actually happens. Something we didn't expect inevitably happens, and we end up deceiving those who are paying money. It's the same with Mimi wo Sumaseba. We gave it such weird copy as "kasakushohin (a fine small work) series" which doesn't make any sense anyway... -laughs-
And then, we decided that we would take this opportunity to do various experiments with it, so it ended up being a big fuss. For example, we used Digital Dolby in Mimi, but we learned that doing it in Japan is quite an adventure. You know, it isn't customary to spend much time and money during post production on the sound recording in Japanese movies. We didn't have that custom either, so we always drew pictures up to the time limit, and we put sounds to it in the minimum time. So, this time, the time needed for recording just skyrocketed.

T: It is so, but in other words, it just happened that way by force of circumstances. We have to pursue what we start to the end. Of course there are restrictions to the schedule and the production costs, so we can't do everything we want, but this Dolby thing also, it just happened that way. Usually, if you do something unusual, you make it a sales point, and advertise upfront that you are using many CGs (computer graphics) and digital compositions, but that's not a good thing to do. You just do it by force of circumstances, and you use trial-and-error, and it becomes something. Then, you can use it in a really effective way. You can do it in a calm state of mind, and Ghibli is the place where we are allowed to do that.

Can Ghibli survive?

T: When you face a difficulty at work, how do you cope with it? There are various difficulties such as delays in the schedule or overspending, but will you try to force things down to the minus direction? Or, this is the "force of circumstances" thing, but if the budget is the problem, will you think up a way to recover more money than you spend, or a way to have people invest more? Producer Suzuki is a person who chooses the latter way, and he always tries to solve problems in an aggressive way. This is how we've been working.

I: There is such an excellent combination (of people) as the foundation of Ghibli, but the young people who are growing right now have to make their talents break through by having their personalities collide with each other, and they get polished by that.

M: It's the same with Paku-san, but when we were young, when we were making movies without thinking who's the director or who's what, we didn't discuss so much. We strongly felt that we were in it together, so there wasn't much need for examining things one by one.

T: That's important. Having lively discussions among staff members often looks cool, but it isn't. You have to finish those kinds of things before that. You have to finish (such things) before you start (making a film).

M: Maybe it was till a certain age, but we had such experiences. If three people get together, it can be powerful. I said so before, but if you get together and start talking, it won't be powerful. You can't do that unless you have a strong core. When Paku-san said "let's do Heidi," I was like "heh? Heidi?" -laughs- I was like, "Well, if you insist, I'll do it..." So, I didn't think that I wanted to direct or anything. So, it wasn't like "let me do this;" instead, it was like "I'll do this, so you take care of that." We clearly knew what we had to do, rather than just talking.

T: We grew up that way, and we've been doing things that way. We have some staff members who have been with us since the beginning, and we have new staff members joining us one after another. I feel that it may be hard for the next generation. I mean, by making the younger generation work for our projects, we may be consuming most of what they have, and because of that, they might not be able to have what they need to construct their own (projects)...

M: Frankly, we used them up. It's like we ate them. I feel guilty about them... We've known those who are now in their thirties since the time they were eighteen or twenty, but it's like when we finish, they'll also finish.

T: No, it isn't. -laughs-

M: We are calling them nakama, but it's more vague. It's not like we've been together for a long time. We happen to be together, and happen to be looking in the same direction at one point in time. It's nakama in that sense. It's not like a relationship where we'll go along with them all the way no matter how terrible the mistakes they make.

I: So, young people have to be careful not to be eaten if they work with Miyazaki-san or Takahata-san.

M: Well, if they were eaten, that would still be fine. What would they do if they weren't eaten? They might be doing more meaningless things. -laughs- But if a really talented young staff member emerges, s/he may be someone who is really detestable. I feel it'll be someone who makes us feel "what an arrogant S.O.B!" -laughs-

T: I think about Hayao Miyazaki. I think many things such as: if he had started directing much earlier, he could have made more masterpieces. I reflect, for example, that I might have done disservice to him by making him work with me. But, in the end, I have to think positively that the experience was useful for him. -laughs-

M: Once, someone told me that if I hadn't met Takahata-san, I could have done many more works. I couldn't understand what he meant. Well, I understood much later, but I still feel that was a foolish thing to say. Because I had no complaint about being an animator. If I thought about my work at such a level as expressing myself in such a form, or self-display, or showing my personality, I think I could have only done a worse job.
Now, people think of Ghibli as the mainstream establishment. But it's been the most adventurous place. Mimi is based on a shoujo (girl's) manga. Even inside, there are some people who wonder "why (do) a shoujo manga now," and we don't know how it will work out until we open the film, but this is a very ambitious project. To realize this (project), though we didn't mean to, we ended up telling many lies such as kasakushohin. -laughs- I think we've been adventurous every time we've chosen a project.[19]

T: So, we aren't choosing them in a way people would say "Ghibli, again?" I think we've been doing projects that seem difficult to make successfully. We are not choosing them from the choices which we think are absolutely safe to do (in terms of making money).

M: I've been saying "Don't think that Ghibli is a stable company. Don't get comfortable just because you are working for Ghibli. Don't have loyalty toward the company." If one project goes down, Ghibli would go down, too. However, it's commonsense to improve the work environment if you make money. It's not right to suck up the profit just because you are taking the risk. But it's absolutely wrong to think that if you just improve the work environment, you can make a good work. A good work can be born even in the worst work environment. So, I'm not going to confuse those. So, I don't feel like "Ghibli forever" like in the case of the Giants.[20] I'm telling my staff members that if they are competent, they can work anywhere.
About the high cost, while it's a necessary condition to raise the quality, it limits our options, and as Paku-san said, it deprives the young people of the chance to get embarrassed. For example, we created the in-between check system, but I want to change it. (If we change it,) Then, cel painters would complain that they can't paint such stuff. Then it would strike the home of the person who drew it, and he/she would be more careful next time. If such things happen, I think there will be a lively human communication among the different functions. But it's difficult to tear the division of labor down once it got created. A system is supposed to be changed along with the people who are in it. Otherwise, its arteries get hardened.

T: We created the system as the way to smoothly carry out the tasks we had to do at that point in time.

M: We've been choosing projects very roughly. Distributors and investors lost their color every time they saw the first screening of each film. Of course, we ourselves were the ones who were worried most, but I heard that Toho had an emergency conference every time.[21] (To talk about) Whether they should cut the number of the theaters. -laughs- Fortunately, Ghibli movies are doing well right now, but it's possible that they won't in the future. But still, we don't want to choose a project based on the prospect of whether it would do well or not.

I:What do you think about the future of Ghibli?

M: Well, it doesn't matter if it goes bankrupt tomorrow. -laughs- It's no use to think about such things.

T: Well, it does matter.

M: I shouldn't have much time left. I don't want to finish being glued to a desk like this.
I went to Yaku Island the other day, and it was the best. I want to live there for a year while I'm still able to walk around the mountains. -laughs- There should be a few clear days no matter how rainy it is, if I stay there for a year.[22]

T: Yes, we are now in preparation for the next film, so we have no choice but to keep going.

M: Those who never said anything about green started feeling (the green is) great while they were walking the mountain. When they went location hunting, they were overwhelmed, and their hands were shaking.

T: They seem to have realized the difference between looking at beautiful green in pictures and actually going there and being surrounded by green, and I think that's good for them. We've been trying to create a realistic world or the feeling of presence with animation. But, the world in images is totally different from reality. I started feeling so. I wonder what the meaning of creating realistic images is.

M: After all, I think we are staying at the level of simple naturalism.

T: I think it'll be interesting if something new emerges and breaks it down.

M: There are countless issues. The ones who have to shoulder these issues are not us, but those who are destined to work, utilizing this place. After all, we can't say anything other than we did as we pleased. -laughs-

T: He says so, but I think he is still going to work hard. -laughs- The next Ghibli film is up to Miya-san, after all.

May 29, 1995, at Studio Ghibli

[此贴子已经被桃夭于2006-5-10 21:19:40编辑过]

LapuTa

哈哈 又一篇长篇巨作完成了~~

这个文章要花时间好好拜读一下~~~

onion

很有意思的谈话，深却易懂，透彻的分析了不同年代的电影动画市场和状况，可以看出这二位前辈一直在追求着他们的理念，从而我更加敬佩他们．

．．原来宫崎骏最早的目标是中国和美国呢．

icytear

好家伙……我都要死了……

不过……对话中二人对比极其鲜明……一个是儒者……一个是狂侠……强烈推荐对待新人的部分……

tower2

对了~里面说的Mamoru Oshii，就是押井守

icytear

上次查过……忘记了……谢谢提示……改一下……

月明镜

宫崎骏高畑勲二位先生谈的很实在。

对动画制作机构的工作模式，他们是有着很清楚的认识的：宽松的模式有利于年轻人的才华发挥，集思广益。然而
也有管理指挥的不便，让年轻人太早冒尖也不尽是好事；严格统一的模式有利于工作效率的提高，可以让头脑的意
志被有效地执行。在这两种模式里，吉卜力属于后者。
“不欢迎天才迸发的人”这话听来实在是罪恶的很：打压年轻人啊！不过你仔细读他们谈话就可看出：首先，这
不是恶意打压，嫉贤妒能。宫崎骏的才华是有目共睹的，也只有由这种人做吉卜力的“头脑”，用这样的管理模式才会有吉卜力的成功；其次，参考下押井守的看法可以理清楚些：他们都是上世纪六十年代成长起来的人
，身上有着时代的烙印，如押井守所说：吉卜力就像克里姆林宫的翻版，宫是Chairman，高是党魁，铃木是KGB首脑。这种管理模式只要"头脑"是有才华的、理智的人，那么就会远比“democracy”的模式要求效率的多。
评价一个动画工作室的高下要看作品。吉卜力的动画制做原则是不符合商业规则的，每部作品在拿给投资主时，都会投资主大为紧张，“召开紧急会议”，担忧的不行，完全无法预估市场收益，而动画上映后却是赞誉连连、票房上佳。不以“有保证的市场收益”而以艺术的追求探索为动画制作标准，对投资主负有责任感，不拖延松懈。因着这样的认真负责的精神，我们才得以欣赏到如此优秀的作品。
宫崎骏先生一直说要退下来休息，要他一再食言。如押井守所说，他会一直在吉卜力卖力地吆喝，努力地做他心中的动画，直到老的不能动，而不会真的退隐，这是创作人的宿命。宫崎骏的FANS们，还会欣赏到他的好作品...

另：儒者、狂侠这个怎么讲？我怎么没品出儒侠二字来？

[此贴子已经被作者于2005-9-10 21:45:37编辑过]

jmmm

看完之后觉得很精彩，原来工作中的他们是这么有激情的。

希望中国也可以有精彩的，没有浓厚商业目的的漫画电影出现，不知道会不会等到自己老了的那一天。

appj

看完之后心理好矛盾,反正有种不详的感觉,

appj

我决定再看一遍!

y65359582

　传统但有游走在时代的边缘，吉卜力工作室是日本乃至全世界的动画工作室都有点不一样，宫崎骏的在他的手下创造着他的另一个世界关于他心灵的世界．我不能对他评价，因为我没有资格．他是在用自己的生命体验动画电影给他的一种的感觉．

　　我们每个人都有一个世界，它一直在等待，只是我们什么时候进去，我们要用那强大的激情去创造我们的世界

　　宫与高的对话述说了他们的历史，但真正告诉我们的是吉卜力不是＂圣城＂．＂圣城＂是我们这代年轻人创造的

　　最后我们必须将环保进行到底

　　还有我们没有权力去给高畑勲与宫崎骏下定义我们还是祝愿吉卜力越走越远

大反派2

都是强人啊

guaiguaihome

俄…………辛苦了……
我觉得不该把开头的：
It's not that we don't get sentimental from time to time, but it wasn't that big a deal.
翻译成：
并非我们从不伤感，而是事情没有想象中的轰轰烈烈。
应当是：
并非我们从不因此伤感，而是这件事没那么重要。
或许好点吧……

wuyang8833

两位如此伟岸的人物
给人的感觉却是如此亲近

伊凡翔

能听到两人更深入的一些问题就好了~

荻野千尋

原來已經這么久了